Where are Old style lines in America still available? - Page 1

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Smiley

by Smiley on 17 March 2014 - 15:03

Are there any current breeding pograms in the US with old style american/early german import lines that possess sound structure, temperament, and health?

I was curious which American breeders still carry on these sound, versatile bloodlines. I am looking for old time breeding programs where the dogs today probably couldn't finish a Championship but are still sound, smart, healthy, performnce dogs and companions.

For example, I always liked those Wynthea dogs and the DeBrut dogs. I know a forum member has some old style bloodlines.....

Are there anymore American breeders carrying on these traditional, American old fashion bloodlines?

Also, if one was a relative newcomer to the breed....can some old timers reveal which breeders/kennels have consistently produced sound, healthy, trainable dogs for decades. Any particular old American bloodlines one would look for in a current pedigree that scream sound, balanced, and athletic?

Thanks in advance!

Smiley

by Smiley on 17 March 2014 - 16:03

Nobody!!! Come on.....

Does anyone know if the Wynthea dogs are still breeding on?

Also, are there any old Kirschental stock here (preferably on East Coast) before the switch to the modern showline dogs?

What about any Manfred Heyne dogs still breeding on?

I am also looking for current breeding programs with the old style AKC American bloodlines- where the breeders didn't sell out-  and kept breeding healthy, sound, versatile dogs. There has got to be some programs who have incorporated these classic bloodlines!

Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 17 March 2014 - 16:03

Smiley, the problem is people who used to breed this sort of dog had to 'go with the fad'. Here's an example of what you would be looking for (Bihari kennels.)

http://biharishepherds.com/links_page.html

They are still breeding and showing, but if you look at their current dogs, you will see they have followed the N. American trend and are overangulated. I believe Joe Sr. is still alive, and I like to think he has made sure his dogs still have sound temperaments, but I don't know for sure.

Wynthea kennels is still around, but I know nothing about them or their breeding program.

I believe Appleridge Kennels purchased one of the last Kirschental dogs, when the kennel was disbanded. Their other recent acquisition, Oscar, is not my cup of tea at all, and makes me seriously wonder just where their breeding program is headed.

https://www.facebook.com/annette.sackridermiller.7
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=566679-anzor-vom-kirschental#pedigreetabase

I have no idea what happened to Manfred's dogs when he passed away.  Sad Smile

 

Smiley

by Smiley on 17 March 2014 - 17:03

Sunsilver....hmm. Thank you for your reply. That's not good. But, I guess I would be ok with that (having to outcross sirelines) if the tail female line is unbroken from their classic dogs and they linebreed back into their classic bloodlines with some consistency. 

 No, their dogs might not finish nowadays but I seek programs where modern breeders still seek to add dogs of these classic kennels knowing those particular dogs from their program have always been sound- mentally and physically- and versatile.

I don't know what Kennel names might crop up in conversation that reprsent that criteria. Like, "Oh so and so goes back to blank kennel on the bottom and those were always legit, good dogs as the breeder culled ruthlessly."

With me....I have grown with time to see consistency in tail female line is paramount over all else. 

Smiley

by Smiley on 17 March 2014 - 17:03

I had a horrendous experience with Appleridge and would not recommend that kennel to anyone on the planet.  But, that's all I will say on that.

The Wynthea dogs have always intrigued me.  But, I heard if she is alive she is like 100! I never seem to see the dogs crop up in breeding programs so not sure if they were all limited registration.

I don't know which kennels incorporate the OLD Kirschental blood if any still do.....

I had found an HGH of Manfred's bloodlines but sadly....the owners tried to breed him to late and he was sterile. Such a shame and big loss.

But, I will admit, to having limited experience with the classic old american bloodlines where they mixed with early german imports. It seems the dogs were a good mix of both groups from the ones I see in books. I don't know if there are any oldtime akc american bloodline breeders left who have consistently created a classic german shepherd in looks, health, and temperament even with outcrossing onto their foundation dogs.

It would be neat to sit down with some old timers who have been breeding for decades and hear what bloodlines consistenly brought sound traits and which didn't and the changes they have seen over time.

GSD Lineage

by GSD Lineage on 17 March 2014 - 17:03

Wynthea Kennels founded in 1965  by Winifred Gibson Strickland
http://germanshepherds.us/

Sadly She died.
She had I think several books. The one she did with James (Jimmy) Moses is not on the site, but it was " The German Shepherd Dog Today" was a good read!

She had some american lines, Select Champions even I think... and left the American lines completely (she said her american dogs had health problems) for German Show lines. 
The last dogs I saw her with were OTCH Wynthea's Ace of Diamonds  and I think she had a Jack of Hearts too.
She believed in the calmer no hype obedience (Old AKC style) and in culling too. Another Era.
Here dogs on this database.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/search.html?q=Wynthea&index_in=Pictures&results_in=25&dog_breed=german_shepherd_dog

 

mollyandjack

by mollyandjack on 17 March 2014 - 17:03

Von Mathausen's stud dog seems to have a strong female line and is linebred on the Kirschental HGH-titled dogs. Don't know if they are old enough for what you are looking for: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=573191-amigos-vom-kirschental
http://www.mathausen.com/

Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 17 March 2014 - 17:03

The Bihari dogs go way, way back to German imports such as Bernd v. Kallengarten, but I don't know if you can trace their current stock all the way back to these dogs. It would be interesting to try!

I do know of a few kennels that tried their best to avoid the trend towards overangulation that began with Lance and his sons, but I don't know their lines, and one of them breeds for black and silver. Breeding for colour is generally not a good plan. Still you might want to look at these kennels, as I know they tried really hard to keep the old lines going:

http://www.valiantdale.com/

http://glendhenmere.com/
(edit: Looks like Mary doesn't breed anymore. IIRC, she used to have lines that were Lance-free.)

Then, there were breeders like Tina Barber (Ma Shiloh) who hated what was happening to the American GSD, so she outcrossed her dogs to a giant malemute, and started her own breed... What Smile  She tried really hard to keep the old lines going, but pretty soon there were no dogs left to breed to that met her standards, so she chucked the AKC, and went her own way. Can't say her Shilohs have been a roaring success, but I fully understand why she did it!

What exactly are you looking for? If it's German blooded dogs that have a good work ethic, and avoid extremes, there are 2 kennels here in Canada I'd recommend: Carmspack (working lines) and Carissima (show lines, owned by the late Leo Bellino's daughter.)

Smiley

by Smiley on 17 March 2014 - 17:03

Gsd Admin...thank you very much!!!! Yeah, I loved her books!! In fact, I have that exact book...The German Shepherd Today (3rd edition) in my lap right now!!

My condolences to those that knew her regarding her passing......

Really interesting about her switching bloodlines. I wonder why she chose GSL over GWL? I'm not trying to start a war or anything it's just seems more people on here complain of health problems and they have show line dogs. I have been to her site (the link you mentioned) many times but no mention of any breeding dogs. Just links to buy books and such or help locating puppies (but doesn't say if they are from her program). Before I pestered them with a call or e-mail, thought I would try here for information first!

But, her dogs were really neat! I'll never forget those great pics in her book! That dog Joll jumping like a fool...boy, he was athletic!! I loved the look and trainability of her dogs.

On another note....Does anyone have any information on a dog called Lance of Fran-Jo? He seems to figure prominently in a lot of early pedigrees. Were the Fran-Jo kennel dogs known to be good?

What about Covy Tucker Hill? Does anyone have experience with that kennel? From their site, it seems they have outcrossed to modern show dogs tons. But, not sure if their foundation dogs are still prevelant in the pedigrees today.


Unfortunately, in terms of show dogs, I seem to like the dogs from the sixties the best which is not helpful as it is 2014!!!! The early dogs seemed much more able to move between the American and German showrings (but that could be my imagination- so please take everything I say with a garin of salt!).

Smiley

by Smiley on 17 March 2014 - 17:03

Sunsilver...just read your Lance comment as we were posting at the same time! Interesting!! I will check out all breeders you mentioned....

Molly...thanks! I will check links.....





 


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