Genetic idiopathic epilepsy - Page 5

When there is proof beyond a reasonable doubt that a specific dog has produced a seizure disorder then it is certainly prudent and ethical to discontinue using that dog in a breeding program. However, when that disorder is seen randomly (as with the litter I bred) and when a frequently used sire like Quenn appears a few generations behind some seizuring dogs, it might not be a great idea to suggest that dog is genetically involved. One poster to this thread has already stated that he or she is very concerned because of the recent purchase of a Quenn g-son. That really is taking it a step too far at this point in time. Again there are multiple causes for seizure activity in dogs (and humans); epilepsy being only one of them and being very difficult to diagnose.

Anyone who has ever worked as a vet or tech knows very well, or should know, that dogs that are prone to seizures experience more seizure activity directly before, during, and after full moon.  Dogs with blood glucose and other metabolic issues, are prone to seizures. Dog with liver shunt issues are prone to seizures. Dogs that are in contact with certain toxins are prone to seizures. Some of those toxins are contained in flea and h-worm preventatives. Dog that have had head trauma are prone to seizures. Trauma experienced at birth can cause seizures. Some investigators suggest that dogs may be prone to migraine auras that can cause seizures. On and on.

I agree about the use of NZ's. Another can of worms.

VKGSDs - I am well aware of the thrust of your comments, however, IMO the part that I have drawn attention to can imply something else.  It seems to suggest that as long as things only pop up here and there then it is OK to continue using those animals in the hope that the gene pool does not shrink any further.  That approach is, of course, not what we want.

I'll agree to disagree then.  I do not base breeding decisions on stuff that does or doesn't "pop up here and there" and is labeled "idiopathic" (meaning a cause has not been identified).  If you are breeding GSDs that have NEVER had any genetic or possibly genetically linked health issues pop up here and there vertically or horizontally in their pedigrees, please share these dogs with us.....  Honestly if I wanted to avoid health and temperament issues I wouldn't even bother with GSDs (and half my dogs are *not* GSDs), but what can I say I love the breed and am willing to stick with it even given the current condition.

I cannot speak to the NZ comparison, none of the GSDs I own have been anything less than OFA Good or Normal/A1 hips, including their sires and dams. I've not had to deal with HD or even NZ or borderline.  I consider myself lucky so far.... As far as hip ratings and ZW scores and *breeding*, well I look at a lot more than just the rating or ZW score of the potential sire and dam.  There may be a dog rated Good or A1 that I would pass on breeding in favor of a different dog that is Fair or A2 depending on what the same or similar pairing/lines have already produced and the overall "picture" of hip production.  I wouldn't rule a dog in or out of breeding based on a hip score just the same as someone telling me a half brother of my dog has "idiopathic epilepsy" (none do that I know of, just giving an example).  That information is just one data point.  Important to research when making breeding decisions, of course, but I wouldn't make the decision based on a single data point.

To the earlier person with the Quenn grandson, I also own and have bred a Quenn grandson.  He's never had a seizure (heck he's never even been to a vet for non-routine stuff other than treating a bad foot infection from a split nail that happened while I was away for a week).  As far as I know none of his littermates or any of the other dogs I know of bred from the same sire (the Quenn son) have seizure probems.  Not saying it doesn't happen, only that just because it happened once or twice considering how often Quenn was used means you have to look at the larger picture, not make big decisions or freak out because some dog somewhere had a seizure.

Agree VKGSD but when it hits that close to home sometimes it's damn scarey;  as a person who has witnessed this tragedy and train wreck and without any solutions to the problem for a healthy lifestyle for the dogs it is unearthing and a terrible disease for this breed.  Seems they  are doing nothing to help this situation amongst other health issues that drastically affect the quality of the dogs lives.  It's shitty for the dogs to have to endure.  Like my vet said who had Shepherds as a younger girl told me my dog looks like the picture of health;  granted he is only 10 l/2 months old;  I plan to keep him that way.  Sounds like you have been too close for comfort with the situation with your hub's;  hope that all works out for him.  Nan

VKGSD

Until I read your latest post I had no idea of what is behind your breeding criteria and so I have not criticised you on that point but only on the remark that you made. Incidentally, in your latest post you said “ Honestly if I wanted to avoid health and temperament issues I wouldn't even bother with GSDs (and half my dogs are *not* GSDs), but what can I say I love the breed and am willing to stick with it even given the current condition”.  Unfortunately, in this day and age it is difficult to consistently avoid a health or temperament issue because of the inbreeding and use of the modern GSD. It is all very well having a pretty dog to look at e.g. show dogs but what we must remember is that the GSD is a working dog that can be shown and be fit for purpose.

If a dog has been diagnosed as having idiopathic epilepsy i.e. cause not proven then these animals must be set aside from a breeding programme until such time as cause is clearly identified. It is better to completely avoid these animals than risk a long term problem which may be detrimental to the breed.

I do not really want to go deep into HD but I have to say that if anyone breeds with a dog that has OFA Good or German Noch Zugelassen then they are still using a dysplastic animal. My only point in introducing the HD situation is that it is a case of a problem being identified and, basically ignored for too long a period of time. It may be that a breeder has kept their pick of litter who is proven to be clear of the disease but what about the other litter mates, how do they rate? Like epilepsy we never get to know much about litter mates?

Mackenzie

WHAT?? An OFA good is dysplastic?

I am not familiar with the USA system for hips but if Good represents the best grade of hips then I apologise for my error.  If OFA Good is not the best grade then the animal will have HD to some degree.

Mackenzie

????????  You are admittedly not familiar with the USA system but are assuming that OFA Good indicates a degree of hip dysplasia???

OK I think you misunderstood.  I personally would not breed a dog with *any* form of epilepsy, especially a dog having seizures and not knowing why, but I would not sit here and condemn dogs that have been very successful producers because they may have produced a dog with epilepsy having no definitely diagnosed cause (could easily be dozens of things that are *not* congenital).

Thank you Nan's.  My husband has suffered several grand mal seizures (and some injuries due to falling or clenching himself).  He was not allowed to drive for over 6 months which was problematic working full time.  He needed many tests, some of which we were never able to afford even with health insurance (don't get me started....) and has been on some very powerful and expensive mediations.  He hasn't had a seizure in a long time but the seizures were pretty traumatic for him and often he will wake up panicking at night because his arm fell asleep and he thinks he's having a seizure (always started in his right arm).  Also, my first GSD was bred before I owned her (I got her as an adult, spayed, I trained and competed with her and had zero interest in breeding) and I am acquainted with one of the people who owned one of her sons and he passed away due to some seizure/brain tumor thing so no, it's not at all something I take lightly.

VKGSDs.  I have now familiarised myself with the OFA scheme from their website. I have also looked at the example x-rays for each grade.  The x-ray for the grade Good shows some very slight sublaxation in the heads of the femurs.  The OFA describe the grade as less than superior which means it is below the grade Excellent and therefore there is HD present but not so bad that it should be considered inappropriate to use for breeding.  My assumption therefore is correct.

Returning to the thread and epilepsy.  If there was good producing dog in a bloodline where epilepsy of any kind had appeared I would not use that dog until it was clear that the cause of the epilepsy was not caused by that animal even if the diagnosis was idiopathic epilepsy.  Idiopathic is unknown cause and can equally be hereditary as any other cause.  I would rather miss the mating than risk the health of the breed.

Mackenzie

I disagree with your assumption. There is no "degree" of being dysplastic when a dog doesn't have HD.  Dogs that do have HD may be more severe, but they have it or they don't. A dog that is OFA Good does not have any "degree" of hip dysplasia, the dog is *not* dysplastic. I'm not sure how you concluded that after looking around for a few hours. I think the "borderline" cases are more rare and usually go one way or the other based on environmental factors like diet, how the dog is worked/exercised, and the condition in which the dog is kept (lean with appropriate muslces to support the hips vs. overweight).

Again, if you wouldn't buy or breed dogs that have any instances of epilepsy in the pedigree or dogs that are anything less than OFA Excellent, I'm interested in what dogs you own and breed....

I'm often blunt but rarely this blunt, however, I know of no other way to say it............Mackenzie's posts are asinine and an utter waste of time to respond to at this point. You can't argue on a level playing field with someone that ignorant to health facts and that short-sighted, with that kind of (il)logical thinking.