Genetic idiopathic epilepsy - Page 6

On the question of HD I have not said in any of my posts that animals with the disease should be excluded from a breeding programme.  It is a question of degree of the dysplasia present.  The OFA has under it's own description of Normal three sub grades Excellent, Good and Fair.   All of these grades are suitable for breeding, however the three classifications are not equal other wise one word would be enough.  Excellent is clearly the best with a perfect hip whereas Good and Fair allow for near perfect but with some degradation which is not so great as to exclude these animals from a breeding programme and, therefore, the grades Good and Fair have a degree of dysplsia however small that may be.  The OFA itself describes the grade Good is less than superior.  My assumption therefore is correct.  I have used the UK and SV systems for x-rays and I have to say that on the subject of HD I have had my share of failure and success.

With regard to epilepsy I would not use an animal if there was history in the breeding family whether the carrier was confirmed or if, as in the case of Idiopathic Epilepsy, the exact cause is unexplained.   I have never bred an epileptic animal.  There is nothing asinine in my posts as Jenni78 suggests and I am very much aware of the health issues that we face having been with the breed for 44 Years.  I was also a member of the SV for many years.

Mackenzie

 

A nonperfect hip does not imply there is any degree of dysplasia.  Where is OFA saying that?! Just because a dog is not perfect does not mean they *do* have a genetic disorder. Still waiting to see these examples of perfect dogs....

Well now we know.

Maybe what Mackenzie is trying to show is best illustrated by the

UK system ?   Under our BVA/KC scoring assessors, we get

results by the 'numbers' grading the degree to which each hip is

'out'.  IE,  they look at all the Angles of the joint and assign a total

for each hip.  So a 'perfect'  score / dog will be  0 (left hip)  0 (right)

equals total:  zero.

 

Everything they find outside perfection gets a score number :  thus,

my own dog has very good, even hips,  and was scored  3 : 3 [6].

Another dog might score, less bilaterally evenly,  9:15.

The bitch I used to have was  29:31.

 

So although Taz has even , very good, hips,  [ which would no doubt have

been given OFA 'good', if not 'excellent' ], they are not quite perfect -

and that indicates a degree of displasia.   Small degree, but none the less

present.   Does not mean the radiographic subluxation of an / some angle(s)

always produces clinical symptoms  (the bitch I mentioned with the 60 score

was never crippled by it, she moved very well and lived to a ripe old age);  but

it IS, technically, more 'displastic' the greater the score, and relevant to breeding

plans.  Nobody in their right mind would have bred puppies out of my bitch !

Spot on explanation hundmutter.  The reason that I used the OFA as an example is the the poster I was responding to is in the USA and quoted the OFA in their post.   Perhaps the USA should look closer as to how other countries make decisions on hip grades.

Mackenzie

  Sure, as if GSD breeders in "other countries" produce better hips more consistently that breeders in the US. For some reason unknown to me there is a certain snobbery from Europe, Oz, the UK, Norway, Sweden etc that their dogs are superior to those produced in NA. Not only this breed, most other breeds I'm familar with too. Let's see the stats on GSD hips bred in the UK et al vs those bred in the US.  I personally know quite a few US GSD breeders who OFA their dogs, only use normal dogs for breeding and rarely get HD anymore. I'm not drinking the Kool Aid til I see proof of the claims.

BTW this is way off topic, this thread asked about genetic idiopathic epilepsy. If you want to analyse and lecture us on HD in the breed, maybe you should start a new thread MacKenzie.

OFA is well aware of how the BVA scores hips.

 

Other Hip Dysplasia Registries—An Approximation

OFA	FCI (European)	BVA (UK/Australia)	SV (Germany)
Excellent	A-1	0-4 (no > 3/hip)	Normal
Good	A-2	5-10 (no > 6/hip)	Normal
Fair	B-1	11-18	Normal
Borderline	B-2	19-25	Fast Normal
Mild	C	26-35	Noch Zugelassen
Moderate	D	36-50	Mittlere
Severe	E	51-106	Schwere

 

At what score does the BVA suggest that dog should not be used for breeding? 18, 16, 12? Or do they not make a recommendation? Either would be an OFA fair, an A1 or 2. Would the average/mean rating of 16 mean that the majority of GSD's evaluted with this scheme would be the equivalent of an OFA fair? After over 40,000 GSD's why would the mean score not be better than that if this scheme is so much better than OFA's?

 

                                                  No Range BMS 5yr Mean Median

German Shepherd Dog        41787 0 to 106     18    16       12

Blitzen

No poster has suggested that the USA is producing worse hips than the rest of the world.  We are all in the same boat but please don't think that the USA is better than the rest of the world because it isn't.  The problem is that the wording of the OFA is misleading with the three sub grades within the grade Normal.  When the grade Good is applied it should say that there is mild dysplasia degradation and the same classification and comment made to the grade Fair.  For some reason the US posters cannot understand that Good and Fair grades contain some degree of degradation even though it may be not so great that the animal with these grades should be excluded from a breeding programme. Anyone that can read and write in the English language will know that Good and Fair are not equal to Excellent.   On the OFA's own website they say that  Good is less superior.  If breeders in the US are making progress on the HD front then that is great but how many dogs graded Normal fall into the category Good or Fair?

I do not want to lecture anyone on the merit or faults of HD.  I made a comment on this thread which if posters care to read it properly they will appreciate that I was using HD to make the point that if we do not deal with problems when they appear then epilepsy and other diseases with escalate to the point that it is too difficult to eradicate.

I would prefer to return to the subject of this thread but it is the US posters who are keeping it going on the HD front.  Unfortunately their comments demand a response, hpwever, I have no intention of commenting any more on HD related subjects within this thread.

Mackenzie

Perhaps the USA should look closer as to how other countries make decisions on hip grades.

Meaning what? Why would we if other schemes aren't proving to be any better than OFA?