Workinglines vs Showlines - Page 1

I´m a member on this board for quite some while now, topics changed, members changed, but the old fight workingline/showline was the same all the time.
It´s always the old mantra :

1. workingline = better working abilities
2. workingline = ugly
3. showline    = working and temperament issues
4. showline    = overangulated, roached backs

As you know, I´m neither a breeder nor a top sport handler, but I had the possibility to see 1000s of dogs during the decades during training, trials, shows out of different lines.

My ( very personal ) resumee ( and for Germany only ):

1.  There is no difference between working/showlines in the percentage of weak/bad temperamented dogs.
Around  30% are not able to do the job/are not breedworthy at all, no matter which line ( not talking about health, just talking about working abilities )
Maybe 15% within the workingline population, 5 % within the showline population are really good.
That said 55% of the workinglines and 65% of the showlines are just "normal" dogs, their development is depending on the training skills of owner/handler/helper.

2.  There is a split between workingline breeders breeding according to the standard and those who don´t care enough ( 50:50 )

3.  Thinking about all the dogs I saw during the years, working and temperament issues as a whole don´t differ, there are as much crappy workinglines as showlines out there.

4. True for about 50% of the showline population - that said, even a showline with outstanding working abilities, but overangulated, is not able to be as successful as the more moderate angulated workingline ( this cuts the % of the breedworthy showlines into halves ).

My (again very personal ) conclusion:

We need to use the dogs with normal to good working abilities and "normal" structure ( according to the standard, not according to personal preferences ) for breeding.
Workingline, showline? We need to use good dogs...
They are out there on both sides of the medal, we only need to care, instead of following trends, money, and fashion ( no matter if we talk about show or sport ).

And now I duck away...
 

VERY GOOD ANALISES SUSIE. I totally agree and have been saying this for a long time. Now if only others would be opened minded and give this some serious thoughts I am sure more would see it this way also.  

Susie,

Help me understand your above interesting statistics,  out of 100% showline population, what is the percentsge of dogs who are fit to be trained and do the job (after removing unfit mentally and physically).

Then please do same for working line

Showlines/Working abilities

    5% outstanding
   55% normal
   60% okay

- 50% overdone dogs
  30% worth to be breed
 

Workinglines/Working abilities

  15% outstanding
  45% normal
  60% okay

-50% dogs not fitting the standard
  30% worth to be bred
 

Advantage in this case on the side of the workinglines, because at least I prefer very good working abilities vs good working abilities.

Ibrahim, these are my thoughts only, but looking at the development of a lot of litters ( bred according to SV rules ) 3 "normal to good"pups out of 10 seems to be realistic.

So on both sides of the breed

30% are worth breeding

70% not breed worthy

I think 30% is a very, very good percentage indeed

Looks like I have been mostly buying from the 70% though

Forgot to add: From these 30% you need to subtract the unhealthy dogs ( HD/ED and so on - around 25% of the population )....makes sense.
And by then you know why it´s difficult to find your "dream dog"

25% is super percentage, if true, and I believe in your brain, breed is still ok

But let me ask one more bold question

Am I safe in assuming the 5% outstanding percentage in showlines and 15% outstanding percentage in working lines hardly leave Germany, and remain mostly in hands of breeders and their friend breeders & trainers?

Good question, Ibrahim!

I´m German, I hope so!
Honestly, a lot of breeders have to buy back their own offspring, because they misjudged the puppy.
And the pups sold to other countries, almost always "vanish" (lack of knowledge, lack of training ) - I don´t want to know how many really good puppies were sold overseas just to become coach potatoes.

Susie, that is more than a bold answer, not sure if many will respond gently to it

Here we go.........