Character of the German Shepherd Dog - Page 7

Les the Kiwi Pauling - Your preference to let your puppies go at between 7- 9 weeks is a personal choice for you, however, I find it quite remarkable that your NEED to know your pups potential can be satisfied during this very short time span. The responsibility for the placement of your pups and their future rests with you and you alone.

For you to say that “2 ended their life-span by ignoring the warning from the uncle who was patrolling them” I think shows a degree of negligence in allowing such a male to patrol the puppies. If I have a male that had the disposition to attack a puppy then I would take the necessary steps to prevent the situation ever arising. Very simple common sense action to put into place.

I should also tell you that like most breeders I have had my share of wilful puppies and that no harm came to any of them before leaving me.

Mackenzie

Les The Kiwi Pauling, That was a valuable post, whether others agree or not, whether you are correct in all the views you presented or not, it is a very valuable post that gives a view from a different bright angle 

I don't presuppose anyone is novice,🙂, my bible for the breed is the German Shepherd in Word and Picture, which I have owned since 1972 and read many times. As such my dogs, breedings, and principles of the breed reflect that thinking. Whatever has evolved since that book in terms of standards, revisions, or changes in the bred survey/test( Sch) do not change my views or values on the breed. Doesn't make me right, or anybody else wrong, just makes me comfortable on my involvement in the breed😊.

[Mackenzie]: stated

● "Your preference to let your puppies go at between 7- 9 weeks is a personal choice for you,"

Not entirely. It is rare to be able to tattoo GSD litters before they are 7 weeks old.

SUITABLE situations can make a BIG difference. In 1984 I had a litter whose characters at 5 weeks old were less out-going than I'd expected. Clarence Pfaffenberger's 1963 "The New Knowledge of Dog Behavior" being one of my "bibles", I contacted one of my ex-pupils who had house-cats and asked her to take one pup for a few days, then loaned her Mathilda, the least confident in the litter. Having to "stand on her own feet" without support from her dam, siblings, adult pack-members who had turns to guard the litters from hungry stray cats did the trick. When the buyers were allowed to make their choices, the businessman who had 2nd pick went away when the lass with 1st pick chose Mathilda. While I was putting all the "personalising" data into my PC1-clone ready to print out, he came back and offered the lass double my price if she would choose one of the others and let HIM have Mathilda - after discussing it with her parents, she agreed.

I am also CONVINCED that someone has to do an incredible amount of familiarisation-&-confidence-building with pups before they enter the "need security" stage at 13 weeks old. Where possible, that should be part of the bonding, and so it makes sense to have the BUYER do it. If the pup doesn't leave the breeder until 12 weeks old, there simply isn't TIME for a buyer to supply all the persuading & trust-development followed by experience-providing needed.

● "however, I find it quite remarkable that your NEED to know your pups potential can be satisfied during this very short time "

Why? Depending on weather, my pups start on the top terrace of my 4-levels "back yard" when 4½ weeks old (supervised by one of my "pack" adults) during daylight. As they develop confidence they push one another off the edge of retaining walls, and after they have learned how to get down the banks or steps they push one another into the pond. When I hear a protest I can easily check on what the protest was about. There are places where I can stand behind a shrub that's on the top lip of a terrace and be almost invisible while watching the pups. I find out which ones chew the vet's shoe-laces while waiting to be checked &/or vaccinated, I see how each one reacts to being ear-tattooed. I have a breeder come and help me evaluate each pup. Each of them has time inside with me on its own, being tested for interesting rolling balls. I HOPE the Scottish half of my male-line came from Edinburgh, not from the dirt-floored slums of Glasgow or up in the Orkneys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3bUsG1fcaE

shows where my grandfather's brother Fred spent almost the whole of his life after returning from WW1. He was a roustabout (mountain shepherd) until his bones became too old, after which he became the station's cook. He is shown and gets a lot of pages in Mona Anderson's "A River Rules My Life" if you are interested in how some Kiwi live.

● "that “2 ended their life-span by ignoring the warning from the uncle who was patrolling them” I think shows a degree of negligence in allowing such a male to patrol the puppies. If I have a male that had the disposition to attack a puppy then I would take the necessary steps to prevent the situation ever arising."

What makes you believe that my dog "attacked" pups? Reality is that wilful pups "attack" their elders UNTIL the elder "explains" to them that they are to desist OR ELSE. I've had adult pooches who had to be kept separated, but more typical was when, while I was clipping the hedge, Hetze whelped her first pup beside me. The pup's first squeal brought the other adults rushing from the various parts of the property that they had been "supervising", and they followed us as I carried the pup inside the ready whelping box that I hadn't expected to need until after nightfall. Their "noses were out of joint" when I insisted that they go back outside so Hetze could concentrate on her labours.

Why aren't your adult GSDs allowed to discipline your pups in the canine way?

If my memory is correct, the dog who was forced to carry out his threat so that the "pack harmony" wouldn't be constantly disrupted by a pup that refused to accept instructions. was "Otto", a show-dog who would dance to the end of his lead to greet each judge - and would win each Longest Down-Stay provided the rivals moved when the judge stepped over them, pulled their lead, bounced balls in front of them, etc. If the judge resorted to the final test - placing a lump of dog sausage just out of reach of each entrant - "Otto" did NOT get up. Keeping his sternum on the ground, his rear toes would twinkle until he slid close enough for his tongue to make the sausage vanish. No, I'm not a fan of teaching food refusal.

BTW, in case you think that "Otto" was a too-tolerant woose: One afternoon a stranger opened the house gate while "Otto" was checking the doings on the far side of the top-of-section fence. "Otto" raced to the top of that 8ft high retaining wall and threw himself down - the chap got the gate closed just in time as "Otto" threw himself so hard at the gate that we felt the crash from the far end of the house. But yes, "Otto" accepted our right to let the chap back in.

Maybe our concepts of "wilful" differ. But I do NOT want to supply pups that bite their household humans. I consider suitable homes so hard to find that I culled most litters back to only 6 whelps based on physical aspects; but sometimes I could not find a reason to cull #7 and #8. If my assessment as to how various pups would develop physically, that was my bad luck as well as the culled pups' bad luck. I leave it to other people to dupe the gullible public into accepting pups that are NOT going to end up with the attitudes & construction specified in FCI Standard #166. With so many show-people preferring maximum-sized pups I do occasionally have somewhat oversized pups - the 2 I can remember were adored by their household but no attempt was made to breed from them.

 

[Gustav] wrote

● "in terms of standards, revisions, or changes in the bred survey/test( Sch) "

SchH is not "the bred survey/test". In the SV, SchH/IPO or HGH is one of the 3 "tests" that MUST be passed before a registered GSD can have offspring registered. The other 2 are hip & elbow stamp certificates.. Naturally those also apply when proceeding on to a Körung/BS. The tests specific to qualifying for entry to a KKl/BS are the AD (endurance test) and a conformation grading of at least G (Good). Once accepted, of course, the dog has to fit within the size & weight & dentition limits, plus prove itself STILL courageous, gun-sure, and sane - and males must seem to have 2 testicles in their scrotum. And you are lucky - I was loaned "The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture" for a few weeks in 1972, which gave me time to look but not to take notes. Some derogatory comments were later made about the 1923 translation into English.

http://www.archive.org/stream/derdeutschesc00step#page/n0/mode/2up

has all sort of things from "Der Deutsche Schäferhund in Wort und Bild"- EXCEPT (1) the ability to rotate pics so that dogs stand on their feet, and (2) the ability to get a machine translation (not that I'd trust Google's Translate for anything important).

💗 My Thu, 26 May 2016 thoughts that "inspired" Swarnendu" were:

Several of you might be interested in reading - possibly even entering the discussion - the thread that was started on Wednesday night in

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/community.read?post=866749-character-of-the-german-shepherd-dog#866828

I read it while eating dinner (my night is too cold to sit out in the kitchen to heat & eat my Meals On Wheels dinner). There are a couple of points I don't like - such as #1: Referring to "our standard" without any specification . There is no such thing as "our standard", thanks to all the 'independent-minded' folk around the world. Only FCI#166 has a "pedigree" I can accept, starting with Max von Stephanitz & Artur Meyer, and progressing through the EUSV followed by through the WUSV - especially with many of the most aggressive GSD people in the pdb insisting that the GSDCAm/AKC invention is correct, or The KC (UK) filleted flounder with no DQs is correct, and so on. #2: I cannot accept the words "aloof" or "suspicious" for our breed - they allow owners to believe that their weak-natured pooch has the correct attitude & character. I want GSDs that insist on KNOWING everything & everyone. If their owner is good to them, they should PREFER their owner after investigating the person or object, but first they should CONFIDENTLY CRAVE to investigate each new person or object as soon as the owner allows them to do so.

Les The Kiwi Pauling

Kiwi, you sound like a German...

Thanks, Les....I am well aware of the difference in Sch/ breed survey....my point though nor well made evidently, is that there has been evolution of Sch as used to assess dog to Sch being primarily a sport today. And breed surveys have been altered also .....but it's not important really what I think. I appreciate your insights into the breed.

[Gustav] on 30 May 2016 - 17:05

● "my point though nor well made evidently, is that there has been evolution of Sch as used to assess dog to Sch being primarily a sport today."

I don't speak Deutsch, so have to rely on scraps printed in English that come my way, but I believe that Max very early on realised that "his breed" was becoming too popular for herding to keep all those minds occupied. Character was also a concern of his. And that he realised that, to make the testing attractive to more than  just shepherds and top breeders, he needed to not only make the test a pre-requisite for having litters registered and being eligible for top gradings, he also needed to encourage "competitiveness" so that the tests would be attractive to "ordinary" owners.

These years are relevant to DogSport:

1902     The GSD Club of Switzerland (SC) is founded by Otto Raum. It is the first club to introduce character testing.
1903     The first Working Trial is conducted. The SV had previously initiated the "Service Dog" and encouraged departments to deploy dogs as protection & support of the officers. Dogs were then donated, on a trial basis, to the police and the military. The title Working Trial Sieger was scheduled for the first time in 1906.

Although I doubt there is 100% accuracy in the pdb, it shows that Max looked for character/training qualifications very early on. There were later siegers that are not listed in the pdb as having any qualifications, and I doubt that SchH3 was available as early as 1904, but the pdb shows:

1902 Sgr.  Peter von Pritschen  PH/KRH

1903 Sgr.  Roland vom Park  ZPr

1904 Sgr.  Aribert von Grafrath  SchH3

 

● "And breed surveys have been altered also ....."

Each nation has the option to either follow the SV model or create its own. However, I object to criteria that ignore the dentition and height disqualifications in FCI#166 , as the British did by inventing a "BS.Cl.1-" for bitches outside the 54-to-61 cm range and dogs outside the 59-to-66 cm range. Those who have read that Council's June magazine will no doubt remember the adjective I used.

Most people are numerate enough to believe that 1^st class is superior to 2^nd class. But how can anyone believe that a pooch so tall or small as to be a disqualification in the International Standard is nevertheless somehow superior to a Class 2 pooch?

Yet some people manage to believe ANYTHING....  :-(

Is there currently a first class and second class?

Gustav, that depends on which country you are Surveying in !

Not within the WUSV member clubs ...