Words of Wisdom - Page 2

MacK; Too few breeders follow conviction to the standard. I believe that most breeders will breed what the judges ''put up''. You did the breed a service by not rewarding specimens below your interuptation of the standard. have your services been requested by those groups again?

"Chicken and Egg". If breeders really want changes, and judges really want changes, they just need to put their heads together and DISCUSS how to achieve changes. There's enough overlap between Judges and Exhibitors, after all (maybe not in America). Instead of blaming each other for poor decisions.

Withholding awards for temperament defects is admirable, Mac, but I bet you were almost forced into doing so because it was very obvious ? It's not quite the same as disagreeing with degrees of structural differences between dogs in front of you. Also I do not understand your description of Shows where judges are unable to award places or ratings. Could you please re-jig that sentence and clarify it ? Which shows, under jurisdiction of which bodies ?

It’s one thing to dismiss for temperament, it’s another to just put up dogs that match what the leaders of the organization are pushing for in regards to conformation. We all understand the politics. Exhibitors/breeders aren’t happy, leadership isn’t happy, judges stop being judges. Not SV, but I know of a working line GSD that was THE ONLY GSD in an AKC show and didn’t get a blue ribbon in order to keep it from moving onto the group judging stage. I know of a working line dog with moderate angulation that showed better than a show line in the LC working class and was still placed behind the show dog. The judges will place the dogs that they know the organization wants placed higher, they don’t go on their own accord and put dogs up against what is being pushed at the current time very often.

All I’m saying is that if as president of the SV you took issue with what was being rewarded in the show ring in regards to rear end angulation, you, more than anyone else involved in the breed have the power and influence to change it and make it go another way. Will there be descent? Absolutely. But if it’s something you truly believe in, you can make the change.

I'm pretty sure he wrote that article after his term as president was over.

I'm not suggesting he didn't do anything when he was the president to address the issue, it actually wasn't a BIG issue during his term as president.

If you are a breeder breed for what you want and find useful in the GSD, if you are a buyer buy what you want and find useful in the GSD. If you are a trainer or a sport guru then buy and train for what you want and find useful in the GSD and don't try to force your narrow vision and experience on the entire breed. The problem is that most breeders and buyers don't know what they want or find useful and just follow the SV, AKC, and biting dog GSD lemmings into the sea to drown in the brown tide of political BS. Biting dogs are not superior, police dogs are not the best, and any other type of GSD sport or training is not indicative of the best of the breed or the best GSD minds or bodies. If you want to follow then don't complain about your final destination. The trip is the reward for both the breeder and the owner of a GSD and the end is not going to be better than the journey since it ends with us all ( dogs and humans ) being dead as fried chicken. I do what I do for my dogs and for me ....... and the SV, USCA, AKC, OFA, and every other self servicing money machine political suck buddy organization is dead to me. Believe it or not my dogs agree as they believe in me and I in them and we all know that at the end of the day that all we have is each other. That is more than enough for us as we don't need or want plastic trophies or the approval of those with no knowledge of what they are seeing. If you will never be happy until others approve of your dogs or your works as a breeder or owner then you will never be happy.

[Mackenzie] 22.7.2016 - 14:07 :
Herr Philip Hutter was the first SV judge in NZ, in 1967 awarding the SV Gold Medals to the soon-to-be-champion UK-born full-German Yokel of Nerrav and the full-English NZ.Ch. Cosalta Felicty. At that stage we had only our unregisterable "Caesar" so weren't involved, but of our registered purchases #2 (Jena) was a Yokel daughter, #3 (Rella) was a Felicity granddaughter, #4 (Mitzi - an LSH) and #5 (Ch.Falka) were by Yokel from Felicity. Dr Christoph Rummel was our 2nd SV judge, in 1973. I imagine it was Valkyr or Hetze (2 Rella daughters) we showed, but missed out on a placing.

● "Some years ago when I judged the breed at two different shows there were two small classes of 4 and 6 dogs. I withheld all of the cards because of weak characters. It did not go down too well but tough."

Reminiscent of when Barbara Lines (Melony Kennels, UK, breeder of my first import), judged in NZ. In the Brood Class she was supposed to award 6 placings. SHE thought they were so dreadful that she wanted to start at 4th place! NZKC rules allow judges to withhold placings, but specifies that if they DO award placings then they must be in sequence starting at 1st. So eventually Barbara backed down and awarded 1st to 3rd. She had another problem after selecting BIS. In those days my local club had a Queen Bee Cup (named after the locally-owned litter sister of the notorious English stud Quebec of Eveley...) that was awarded to whichever GSD had won the most CCs (each worth one point towards a Champion title). As there were only 3 GSD clubs then, each eligible to hold one Ch.show per annum, but there were several dozen all-breeds clubs each eligible to hold 2 Ch.shows per annum, naturally the winners were all-breeds dogs - and this was at a time when the "Prick-Eared Basset" deviation from the GSD was popular with all-breeds judges. The winner had to be PRESENT at our club's show, but didn't have to compete - John wisely chose not to compete. When Barbara (whose origins were in obedience in the UK) saw his bitch she tried to refuse to award the Cup. But it was in her contract that she had to present each of the club's trophies - so she did, but her comments over the sound system would have caused John to cringe.

You might have enjoyed 3 of the Continental judges our Auckland club had in that era. In 1975 Barbara had impressed with her fitness by walking along the class from tail to front during the extended gaiting, crowding each one as she caught up to it.
In 1978 Jan Haan (Ned.), in 1979 Alfred Hahn (Ger,), in 1980 Heinz Hühn (Ger.) had instructions to test the character of the older classes - which they did by such as throwing the "witches' hats" traffic cones or a wooden deck chair to land just in front of each posed exhibit. After which NZKC banned "us" from temperament testing....


[Bavarian Wagon] 22.72016 - 17:07

● "It’s one thing to dismiss for temperament, it’s another to just put up dogs that match what the leaders of the organization are pushing for in regards to conformation."
Part of the problem is that there are few LIMITS stated re conformation - apart from a few that any owner would notice so not put in an entry for, dentition & size are "them". Even character is up to the judge's OPINION - which is why in recent years there have been so many GSDs qualified with IPO or SchH that turn up to the BSZS but get dismissed for character.

● "All I’m saying is that if as president of the SV you took issue with what was being rewarded in the show ring in regards to rear end angulation, you, more than anyone else involved in the breed have the power and influence to change it and make it go another way"
The trouble is that the breeders PREFERRED the exaggerations, as did Hermann Martin when HE came to power - and he has been succeeded by enthusiastic disciples.

 

[bubbabooboo] 23.72016 - 02:07

What you sat might be acceptable - up to the point where you or anyone who DEVIATES from FCI#166 starts to declare that your/their pooches are GSDs.

For any NAMED aeroplane or breed or building or Olympic track or ship or tennis court or vehicle there can be only ONE blueprint. For the GSD breed, that blueprint is FCI#166, as democratically approved by conferences of various organisations - currently the WUSV. The FCI doesn't create any Standard - it determines which country's Standard has the rght to be stuck to by breeders & judges worldwide.

Of course, REBELS find accepting what anyone else has decided is too much bother.

We all live by rules and Regulations whether we want to or not. We abide by the Rule of Law, Rules of the Road, Rules of Behaviour ( although not everyone), Building Regulations, the list is endless but we all try to abide with them in the required way. So, what is a Breed Standard other than a rule and Regulation of what is required to satisfy the purpose of the animal, whether that is dogs, horses, cattle, Plants etc etc. We abide by these rules to achieve the purposes for what our dogs are required to do for the betterment of the Breed as a whole. The Breed Standard in itself is meant as a guide to promote the aims of the breed and achieve the stature of our dogs and, make them fit for purpose, that was intended from the very beginning. The Breed Standard has stood the breed in good stead for over 100 years and is now on common ground worldwide. To deviate from the Standard as Bubbabooboo seems to suggest and just breed for what we each want as individuals will create absolute chaos and a mishmash of undesirable traits coupled with increasing health problems. The Breed Standard has nothing to do with the way Clubs operate their finances. There is no BS in a Breed Standard as the requirements are set out quite clearly, however, to breed to the Standard is seldom easy. The less knowledgeable just follow the crowd in their breeding programmes. The Judges can only judge what is in front of them (with adjustments for favours etc) and if substandard dogs are presented then the Judge should have the backbone to throw them out. We should not follow Bubbabooboo’s advice.

Mackenzie

Mac, I absolutely agree with you, and Les, about that; but you are both on a "hiding to nothing" with that line on this, mainly American-populated site.  AKC having so long ago made its maverick decision to award prizes to the NA Ski-Slope breed, it is much too long a way back for them to decide to change now, I think.  The 'working' dogs were always the better constructed, in general, and look at the way the US GSD Fancy has polarised over the SL/WL split ...

 

Meanwhile, PLEASE could you clarify "The results are also in a required format which leaves no room for either, refusing to give out a place card or, refusing to give a rating.(My emphasis) The winner is either given a red card for first place, or, a V rating except in young dogs class ..."  as (apart from the misapplication of commas which I'm surprised Les is letting you get away with) it reads like some mish-mash between UK KC and SV rules, and thus makes little sense.  Aside from effectively saying "you can't withhold a placing" and then going on to give the example when you did precisely that.  In the interests of clarity, WTF are you referrencing ???

[LES - I haven't forgotten, just having a lot of difficulties at present with doing more than basics both through this site and e-mails.  Hope you got the new ute ?]

Hundemutter - to clarify my comment for your benefit I was referring to the UKKC and SV system. Something that you already know. You are right that I did break the rules because as an honest Judge I could not possibly condone giving out prize cards to animals that had such serious faults. I believed it then and I believe it now. Following the second incident I cancelled a judging appointment and refused other invitations to judge and, I have not judged since. Perhaps you would like to clarify your performances as a Judge.

Les also commented on the fact that rules in NZ when Barbara Lines had a similar experience. She submitted to the NZ rules whereas I did not do the same in the UK. Please add NZ to your list.

Mackenzie