When Line Breeding Where Do you Cross The Line: - Page 3

The footnote about: - numbers in each breed studied should not be taken to indicate the level of epilepsy in that breed, but rather the degree of breeders' interest in finding out more about and tackling it - is all very well ... but seems a little disingenuous to me given that one of the highest totals sampled was Red Setters, and they have a distinct history of quite a lot of cases of fitters, going back a long time ! We had one in my own family (before I was born into it in the 50s). And what better incentive to take an interest in any condition than to know that your own breed is riddled with it ?

Once I found a place listing Willis books, so I needed to know which book was best. Mine has a full chapter on epilepsy. Not sure if that chapter could be copied as per copyright laws. The copywrite may be 70 years and the book is not that old.

Then I have a 1991 book of his The German Shepherd Dog: a genetic history published by Howell Book House which material is different from the above book.

Well the editions I listed from the 90s encapsulate, expand and update what Malcolm wrote in earlier volumes, I'm fairly sure. He was working up to another one when he took sick, so it didn't happen. On the breed-specific one I would always go for the most recent date I could find, since it includes a greater number of more modern dogs/lines and the more recent findings in genetic information. The more info included, the more practical use it is to latter-day breeders and owners.

[TIG] 10.10.2016 - 12:10

● "Yes back forty is a homebred expression more along the line of a farm term but I think most people get the idea w/o thinking I mean to check several trillion ancestors."
Obviously I am NOT one of the "most people" you are familiar with.
Kindly EXPLAIN what you actually meant, instead of merely repeating the 2 meanings I supplied as being NOT likely in this context.

● "Never said Germany didn't have epilpesy or any other country for that matter."
NO "country" has "epilpesy", nor epilepsy. Epilepsy is a disorder that affects members of the animal kingdom, not land-masses.

● "Also since it's most likely a threshold factor it is possible for an area or a tightly bred pedigree to lack the triggering level but when introduced to new breeding partners carrying those different factors wham bam. (wh/ may be what happened here in the US)"
I have no idea why you included "area" in that, nor why you think "a tightly bred pedigree" might keep epilepsy out.
So what was your reason for including each of those terms?

As for a threshold level, a Dutch friend proposed THAT back in the 1970s when epileptics started popping up in NZ. Her surmise was a total of 8 genes, with males being triggered when at least 4 of them are present, bitches needing at least 5 of them. Time will tell whether she was right.

● "Also never said Avon Prince didn't get it from his German ancestors - (snip) there are several suspects that would help explain the seemingly greater preponderance in the UK."
Where do you get the idea that it is more preponderant in the UK than in the USA?
Just as almost all haemophilia A in GSDs can be traced back to a tail-female line from Canto Wienerau, most British GSD epilepsy can be traced to Avon Prince. His libido was so low that he had very few litters, but inbreeding on him has been incredibly intense. I think Chris H stated that she had found 300 lines to him in recent pedigrees - but not all of the 300-times descendants are "fitting", of course.

● "all we have to go on now is knowledge of carriers and affecteds and pedigrees which animal breeders have used successfully for centuries but which you seem to want to ignore."
Really? Your fantasy-driven opinions about me have a FANTASTIC error rate!

● "So care to share  the 48 names in your private db to help the rest of us?"
Not in the slightest. Especially as you unpredictably switch between DM and epilepsy. But mainly because there are only about 3 NZ kennels testing for DM in NZ - the main one of them being totally unaware that it was in their lines until the bitch I'd bought from them was DNA tested to see whether her symptoms might be early DM, and she turned out to be a carrier. So I did some gossip-line research and found that my bitch's close bitch-line included at least 2 imported studs who had either produced DM or died of it - the importer of both those European studs is far from a friend of mine, so I won't be asking him whether the rumour is true. Meantime, I recommended to my Bea's breeders that they DNA test all their broods carrying one or both of those studs. They decided to test their imported stud as well. He turned out to be a carrier, and every bitch they've told me the results of is also a carrier. Which leaves 2 allegedly DM-free studs in other hands. One I won't use, because he features the VERY low fertility Ingo Frankengold line responsible for Bea's lack of children. The other I would use, if Bea choose to have seasons after she returns to me, but I would have to do a LOT of DNA testing to work out which pups can be used for breeding, which must be endorsed to prevent breeding.
But I'll name 2 German and one English stud that have produced epilepsy to bitches from my kennel and a friend's that were heavily based on descendants of Avon Prince via Asoka Cherusker and Ludwig of Charavigne, before Mutz P > Jonny R lines became available to me:
Phal Aegidiendamm, Prinz Ramhorst, Rossfort Premonition.

● "Also I would suggest a stroll thru PubMed. Even a quick & dirty search will show you there is not one entity called canine epilepsy. It varies widely by breed in it's expression and it's possible mode(s) of inheritance and responsiveness to treatment."
It was one I had visited and dismissed in favour of listing the 2 sites I DID refer people to. So nothing in your paragraph is new to me, and I doubt it is new to anyone who did read through the links I gave.
Certainly polygenic disorders can display with varying severity - with HD being the main evidence for most breeders who can think.

● "Finally for some one who tries to come across as Mr. Know it all and a stickler for the "correct" scientific terminology at all time you use the SOD1 test as an example of a dna test for a disease- really???"
#1: Are you implying that I FAILED to come across as meeting YOUR standards for "Mr. Know it all"? Oh DEAR - I'm SO ashamed. I might go lie down and have a quiet weep for a year or three! But it IS a long time since I teamed with a past winner of NZ's tv quiz (Mastermind, I think it was, that he'd won) as delegates to represent the school I was teaching at in the city's inter-school quiz. I think I answered more questions than our Quiz Kid did.

 

You are likely to find that I DO - within a few days - know everything I NEED to know. And that I do NOT like having my questions evaded (the way you've done) instead of ANSWERED! I was raised in an INFORMATION CULTURE.

#2: As for DM: Presumably you're a disciple of Margorie Zimmerman, & Roger Clemmons' test named for her Jack Flash.

I didn't care WHAT gene-locus was tested for - what I cared about was whether the test available was ACCEPTED by the vets in this part of the world. As far as I know, the same test is accepted in your part of the world, starting with the OFA.
I am NOT happy with the vagueness of the wording on the DM certificate, but the "Florida test" has failed to get acceptance outside Marjorie's circles - which doesn't prove it WRONG, just that it isn't going to be accepted by breeders whose studs I need to use.

● "Also do your homework about ALS"
Had you thought to write out "Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis or Lou Gehrig's disease or even Multiple Schlerosis" I wouldn't have needed to look up ALS.
One of the tables in my "encyclopedia" web-site is called Alphabet Soup, for myself and others to find out what various cryptic initials actually mean. ALS is now in it. I LOATHE the way Yanklish is rushing us towards Babel, with each person inventing his/her own term for each thing they need to discuss, and then being too lazy to actually say/type the WORDS they (or their associates) have invented, so they supply just the ambiguous enigmatic initials.

● "especially if they have that little piece of paper saying CC."
I again do not know what the hell you are trying - ineffectively - to communicate. In my country, cc stands for cubic centimetre, CC stands for Championship Certificate - 8 of which, from at least 6 different judges, are required for a dog to become a NZ Champion. Of course, you being a fan of txtlsh, you COULD be meaning "Si Si".

Your genetic terminology also doesn't match what is used on our DNA certificates and in the genetics groups I belong (or belonged) to. As for when you lapse into txtlsh....

● "So please b4 you beat all others over the head with the stick of correctness consider that you too might have some failings."

What a QUAINT idea!
Me?
Be  wro...   wr......      r............      slightly incorrect?
Ce n'est pas possible!

NEVER!

Je suis parfait!

BTW: I wasn't allowed to beat my pupils over the head. And I didn't get a stick until long after I was sent home with a wheelchair and only 1 leg - the walking stick didn't arrive until my stump was ready for a prosthetic about 5 or 6 months later.

[TIG] 10.10.2016 - 12:10

● "Re the Willis book I was going to say 1976 but all the copies for sale said 1977"
Of course - you are a Yank and so the search tools gave precedence to Yank sites and Yank publishers.

● "Are you in the UK?"
As [Hundmutter] told you: NO.
My ancestors were intelligent enough to get out of Auld Blighty before the state education cistern there fell apart. I don't always know the exact date each arrived, but the general period was 1860 to 1880. One emigrant's granddaughter lurked in Australia before marrying my maternal grandfather.

 

Although the analyses pioneered by Dr Willis would be handy (and are still performed by the GSDCAu), there is no need for the Red Books - I don't know how many Pommy owners "neglect" to supply their xray-certificates and other "health" certificates to The KC, but
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/test/Default.aspx
lets anyone see the scores of the parents & progeny that HAVE been supplied - a pity that fuddyduddy The KC won't supply the NAMES of the progeny.

Yes, apologies, I can NEVER remember its all there on KC Mateselect (maybe 'cos I for some reason cannot always get the KC site to work for me on health research, - although I am signed on to the website, I am not the owner or breeder of any dog I have tried to look for on there, I don't know if that automatically locks one out ?)

Also the advantage of Malcolm Willis's tables was the at-a-glance comparisons one could make between co-temporaneous sires;  when you use KC records, its looking at one dog at a time ...

Hey hind mutter! Why don't you buy both books for TIG and ship them to her to replace the single book that YOU claim I stole when it did "walk off" when I was 3,000 miles from her and did not even know she existed. Be careful of accusing people of stealing things!!!! I will not forget or forgive YOU!!! I shall remember when you will not expect me to do!! So go buy and ship those books!!! If you so do, only then will I forgive and forget!!!

Oooh, can I get a copy sent to me, too?

When I win the Lottery, guys ...

OK folks time to get back to the original question.

Susie, I will of course try to answer your question when I have the time either privately or most likely with another thread since this one seems to have taken a left turn or perhaps found a traffic circle.

A - Oh for goodness sake get off your hi-horse and stop presuming. HM did not accuse you of anything. For Pete's sake she was joking. Get over yourself.

Les If at some point you choose to have a serious discussion I shall be happy to do so but I will not be any further part of your pathetic self - aggrandizing attempts by parsing every syllable someone wrote with one exception. An explanation of "Back Forty" follows.

Back Forty is an American idiom that came out of our homesteading days when folks could get land free if they farmed it. Most took quarter sections, (Army Corp of Engineers had surveyed the open West establishing townships - 6 miles square and sections -1 mile sq and 640 acres) which consisted of four 40 acre parcels often referred to as front and back forty. As an idiom it has come to mean to know what's in the back beyond or behind things.