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by kitkat3478 on 23 November 2016 - 05:11
lol hexe, good one!
by Centurian on 23 November 2016 - 17:11
My first comment is that to many professionals hereon the PDB I respect your knowledge and comments: But do remember there are many that don't have 1/10 th the background that you have .HMany peole gain good knowkedge but at times don't know enogh to be able to critique the posts. Someitmes I see that even among yourselves you loose the tree in the forest when it comes to discussing canines.
This thread is to over generalized. If one wants to talk about specific traits that best make a LE canine - fine . If one discusses the best traits that make for a sport canine fine . But discussing them together is like comparing apples to oranges. Foolishness to discuss and compare two entirely different type of canines in two entirely different enedeavors . Foolish to see 1 video and to draw any conclusion about a canine !!
Not in adressing the vidoe on this thread but as a general comment : One cannot from one video make a judgement whether a canine will be well suited , or make for the best , a law enforcement dog. It may be possible at times , but making a 1 time assessment about a dog via a video is not best. Sometimes this may be true also for a sporting dog - a 1 time assesmnet on a video may not be best for a conclusion.
Genetics and environment : they BOTH, always always alway together play a role . Sometimes there are latent genes controlling latent behaviors in canines , that become activated upon maturation. I have seen puppies many times that did not project potential for sport when they were very very young puppies yet after maturing went on to get Sch 3 or Ring 1 titles. And I have seen the oppoisite , young canines looking promising [100% genetic predisposition, natural aggression too , as pups for LE ] that turned out to be disasters.
A commentary about canines that were deemed great prospects for law enforcement :
I have seen many so called great 99% genetic predispostioned canines deemed fantastic LE candidates. But , the big picture about these dogs was oftern overlooked. What was overlooked is describe as " TEMPERAMENT" . Temperamnet is a whole topic in and of itself. What is , what role it plays and how to correctly acess and evaluate temperament should always first come to mind looking at a dog . Of course we should remember that temperament is innate , fixed and unalterable based on breeding practices , that is a given . Natural aggression.. that means nothing to me....What does is the quality and quantity of gression as it is exhibited as it relates to an individual dog's total temperament. And this often is not apparent in 1 session or 1 video.
What is the more important question about a canine? #1- does the dog naturally protect, which answered is a yes or no ,which tells very little about the dog or #2 What is the temperament of this dog, which gives you the bassis for all the behavioral attributes about the dog for what is is and what it can do [ or is not and cannot do] ?
What you see is in a video is what you , THINK , you see. BUT ... the big but is, that many times what you think you see is not what you get for many times, not everything is as it seems to be about a canine. If you consider 1 aspect .. natural gression [ for whatever that means ] then you will certainly lose the tree in the foresr . And if one cannot recognioze the dog for what it is , most likely you too will mkae many training errors even if you are a professional.
'naturally protects' [ and please , define what that specifically means , because to me there are different qualities and quantities of aspects to different categories of so called aggressioin/ defense which is related to understanding it's temperament ] ... A Canine that so calls ' naturally protects' should not always mean to say it makes for a good working LE canine . No ,it could very well mean just the opposite .What should be taken away a dog the exhibits natural aggression ? The only fact for sure .. is that it naturally aggresses.
What I am saying is that there is a differentaition in ' AGGRESSION" . There exists both in canines 'Natural'and 'Abnormal' Aggression. Sound and unsound agrsssion also .. and all four are different . Seeing aggression in and of itself does not alone tell one what is going on in the dog's head , what it's true temperament is ! What I claim is that there is a differentiation in " AGGRESSION " and many law enforcement people , many high end trainers do not or cannot acknowledge this. The most mis understood aspect of ' natural aggression is the ability to see ' Overaggression' , or stated specifically an abnormal amount of aggression, of genetic origins within the dog , within the temperament. I say they often don't see what they need to see even as they test the dog !! I have seen this countless times ... and within LE canines. Unfortunatley I have had experience in over 30+ years of now and then seeing an officer that thinks he has a super K9 that by my standards is not and far from it. IMOp they have canines with abnormal canine aggression and they cannot recognize it or they don't want to acknowledge/admit it. So to me .. that tells me little about the dog.. for i could also be a nut case too.
So you can see 1 video .. a dog may look super .. BUT what about the ability of the dog to take direction [handler synergy], what about the dog's ability to have impulse control .... to be able to think as it acts, to have descernability ? One video or exercises session , and we think.. oh .. this dog naturally protects ... Really... Tell me what is the quality and quantity of this behavior and from where does it arise . Then I will talk about this dog. IMOp .. I want to know what is in the dog's head , it's temperament , it's behavioral traits then I will talk to you about whether 'this is a LE ' candidate.
For example , I think these things when I see a canine : A dog that cannot be controlled I say .. is not a great LE canine. A canine with such natural protection that is suspicoius of everything and never settles , is not a great LE canine. A canine that is so naturally protective that is bent is to protect unto itslef and leave me out of the picture , or would have inclinations to protest in my direction- bite me , is NOT A GOOD WORKING CANINE. And I have trained them ..goodness , some of those canine could never be taught a 'call off from a send to bite". Some ' outing form the bite because once in combat , they were in their own world. Genetics ... natural aggression- one better understand clearly what one means about natural agression for I see this not as a topic for a thread about a video. To many ... way to many facotors come into play making a good sport or good LE canine. A general conversation , as I wrote yes , but a specific canine evaluation for any internet viewing - NO!
On another PDB thread . You actually had people write that they actually liked to see a canine with [at least a bit ] of handler aggression . You don't say. Thank goodness it was rebutled by someone that knew what he is doing. Some acutally think , a dog that will so call 'naturally protect' , even to the point of handler aggression, is a good dog . Case in point ... that is perfect example reflecting how little valued is the aspect of looking at and understanding the whole dog , including the most fundamental aspect 'the soundness / the temperament of the canine.
When it comes to canines and such topics and videos , one should not generalize the specific to the general or the general to the specific. Unless one either formally or informally does a comprehensive , not just a bite session test , but a TRUE comprehensive tempermant evaluation .. then I think best not to say anything, or even present any videos. Making assesmnets not knowing fully about any canine or discussing the temperamnt in depth is foolishness.
This thread is to over generalized. If one wants to talk about specific traits that best make a LE canine - fine . If one discusses the best traits that make for a sport canine fine . But discussing them together is like comparing apples to oranges. Foolishness to discuss and compare two entirely different type of canines in two entirely different enedeavors . Foolish to see 1 video and to draw any conclusion about a canine !!
Not in adressing the vidoe on this thread but as a general comment : One cannot from one video make a judgement whether a canine will be well suited , or make for the best , a law enforcement dog. It may be possible at times , but making a 1 time assessment about a dog via a video is not best. Sometimes this may be true also for a sporting dog - a 1 time assesmnet on a video may not be best for a conclusion.
Genetics and environment : they BOTH, always always alway together play a role . Sometimes there are latent genes controlling latent behaviors in canines , that become activated upon maturation. I have seen puppies many times that did not project potential for sport when they were very very young puppies yet after maturing went on to get Sch 3 or Ring 1 titles. And I have seen the oppoisite , young canines looking promising [100% genetic predisposition, natural aggression too , as pups for LE ] that turned out to be disasters.
A commentary about canines that were deemed great prospects for law enforcement :
I have seen many so called great 99% genetic predispostioned canines deemed fantastic LE candidates. But , the big picture about these dogs was oftern overlooked. What was overlooked is describe as " TEMPERAMENT" . Temperamnet is a whole topic in and of itself. What is , what role it plays and how to correctly acess and evaluate temperament should always first come to mind looking at a dog . Of course we should remember that temperament is innate , fixed and unalterable based on breeding practices , that is a given . Natural aggression.. that means nothing to me....What does is the quality and quantity of gression as it is exhibited as it relates to an individual dog's total temperament. And this often is not apparent in 1 session or 1 video.
What is the more important question about a canine? #1- does the dog naturally protect, which answered is a yes or no ,which tells very little about the dog or #2 What is the temperament of this dog, which gives you the bassis for all the behavioral attributes about the dog for what is is and what it can do [ or is not and cannot do] ?
What you see is in a video is what you , THINK , you see. BUT ... the big but is, that many times what you think you see is not what you get for many times, not everything is as it seems to be about a canine. If you consider 1 aspect .. natural gression [ for whatever that means ] then you will certainly lose the tree in the foresr . And if one cannot recognioze the dog for what it is , most likely you too will mkae many training errors even if you are a professional.
'naturally protects' [ and please , define what that specifically means , because to me there are different qualities and quantities of aspects to different categories of so called aggressioin/ defense which is related to understanding it's temperament ] ... A Canine that so calls ' naturally protects' should not always mean to say it makes for a good working LE canine . No ,it could very well mean just the opposite .What should be taken away a dog the exhibits natural aggression ? The only fact for sure .. is that it naturally aggresses.
What I am saying is that there is a differentaition in ' AGGRESSION" . There exists both in canines 'Natural'and 'Abnormal' Aggression. Sound and unsound agrsssion also .. and all four are different . Seeing aggression in and of itself does not alone tell one what is going on in the dog's head , what it's true temperament is ! What I claim is that there is a differentiation in " AGGRESSION " and many law enforcement people , many high end trainers do not or cannot acknowledge this. The most mis understood aspect of ' natural aggression is the ability to see ' Overaggression' , or stated specifically an abnormal amount of aggression, of genetic origins within the dog , within the temperament. I say they often don't see what they need to see even as they test the dog !! I have seen this countless times ... and within LE canines. Unfortunatley I have had experience in over 30+ years of now and then seeing an officer that thinks he has a super K9 that by my standards is not and far from it. IMOp they have canines with abnormal canine aggression and they cannot recognize it or they don't want to acknowledge/admit it. So to me .. that tells me little about the dog.. for i could also be a nut case too.
So you can see 1 video .. a dog may look super .. BUT what about the ability of the dog to take direction [handler synergy], what about the dog's ability to have impulse control .... to be able to think as it acts, to have descernability ? One video or exercises session , and we think.. oh .. this dog naturally protects ... Really... Tell me what is the quality and quantity of this behavior and from where does it arise . Then I will talk about this dog. IMOp .. I want to know what is in the dog's head , it's temperament , it's behavioral traits then I will talk to you about whether 'this is a LE ' candidate.
For example , I think these things when I see a canine : A dog that cannot be controlled I say .. is not a great LE canine. A canine with such natural protection that is suspicoius of everything and never settles , is not a great LE canine. A canine that is so naturally protective that is bent is to protect unto itslef and leave me out of the picture , or would have inclinations to protest in my direction- bite me , is NOT A GOOD WORKING CANINE. And I have trained them ..goodness , some of those canine could never be taught a 'call off from a send to bite". Some ' outing form the bite because once in combat , they were in their own world. Genetics ... natural aggression- one better understand clearly what one means about natural agression for I see this not as a topic for a thread about a video. To many ... way to many facotors come into play making a good sport or good LE canine. A general conversation , as I wrote yes , but a specific canine evaluation for any internet viewing - NO!
On another PDB thread . You actually had people write that they actually liked to see a canine with [at least a bit ] of handler aggression . You don't say. Thank goodness it was rebutled by someone that knew what he is doing. Some acutally think , a dog that will so call 'naturally protect' , even to the point of handler aggression, is a good dog . Case in point ... that is perfect example reflecting how little valued is the aspect of looking at and understanding the whole dog , including the most fundamental aspect 'the soundness / the temperament of the canine.
When it comes to canines and such topics and videos , one should not generalize the specific to the general or the general to the specific. Unless one either formally or informally does a comprehensive , not just a bite session test , but a TRUE comprehensive tempermant evaluation .. then I think best not to say anything, or even present any videos. Making assesmnets not knowing fully about any canine or discussing the temperamnt in depth is foolishness.
by Gustav on 23 November 2016 - 18:11
There is a lot of information in the above post.
by Mackenzie on 24 November 2016 - 06:11
Very good and realistic post from Centurian. Take note USA.
Mackenzie
Mackenzie
by vk4gsd on 24 November 2016 - 07:11
then I think best not to say anything, or even present any video"
Brilliant, that will increase knowledge. In fact that is why old people got away with so much BS.
YouTube is feared by hype peddlers that got nothing except stories.
Brilliant, that will increase knowledge. In fact that is why old people got away with so much BS.
YouTube is feared by hype peddlers that got nothing except stories.
by vk4gsd on 24 November 2016 - 07:11
then I think best not to say anything, or even present any video"
Brilliant, that will increase knowledge. In fact that is why old people got away with so much BS.
YouTube is feared by hype peddlers that got nothing except stories.
Brilliant, that will increase knowledge. In fact that is why old people got away with so much BS.
YouTube is feared by hype peddlers that got nothing except stories.
by Swarnendu on 24 November 2016 - 08:11
YouTube is feared by hype peddlers that got nothing except stories.
YouTube is adored by hype peddlers that got nothing except one good video among many failures.
YouTube is revered by clueless newbies that get frustrated because their dogs cannot copy the videos each and every time.
YouTube is adored by hype peddlers that got nothing except one good video among many failures.
YouTube is revered by clueless newbies that get frustrated because their dogs cannot copy the videos each and every time.
by vk4gsd on 24 November 2016 - 08:11
When different trainers critique the same video and the shit fights break out for 10 pages everybody learns something new.
Videos are only a partial picture for sure but light years ahead of no picture.
My eye has become very tuned into edits, timing changes....what I used to see as amazing I now see clearer, I can tell good decoys, good training and a bit about the dog and a lot about the handler, trainer and context.
Watch enough videos and you learn who to follow, who to watch and who is faking it and more importantly how they are faking it.
Something about rewinding and stepping thru frame by frame is sometimes more revealing than live.
A noob can be fooled as much in real life as a slick promo video.
The discussions from many trainers with different levels of experience from all over the globe arguing their point re a clip is a vastly superior info source than a slick talking dog dealer speaking all kinds of shit and nothing to show.
In fact pro debaters now avoid video because you can actually get away with much more bullshit live than you can when someone is going thru every frame on video and researching/fact checking every single word and gesture.
by Swarnendu on 24 November 2016 - 09:11
vk4gsd, videos posted in PDB forums? It doesn't matter what the dog is doing. It's always about WHO has posted the video.
I've seen people finding endless faults in a seemingly natural unedited first time training video uploaded by a person, and then going gaga over a dog picking up a piece of metal in a video uploaded by another person.
Metalapport!!!
Hell, you can pretty accurately predict what the response would be by only the names of OP & responders!
FYI, my PET would pick up any metal unless it's an umbrella. Because then she'd go hide behind momma.
I've seen people finding endless faults in a seemingly natural unedited first time training video uploaded by a person, and then going gaga over a dog picking up a piece of metal in a video uploaded by another person.
Metalapport!!!
Hell, you can pretty accurately predict what the response would be by only the names of OP & responders!
FYI, my PET would pick up any metal unless it's an umbrella. Because then she'd go hide behind momma.
by vk4gsd on 24 November 2016 - 10:11
Picking apart details and supporting your reasoning is entirely my point.
The fact that some people go gaga or not is because content providers develop a reputation.
Eg: anything Dennis olden (spll?) people that have a clue know it will be absolute top level training in that venue. Canczech will always also be top training in a different venue, we expect that.
Why don't you try it post a clip, critique it and see what you learn from the shit fight that follows.
I don't like to post others clips up for critique.
The fact that some people go gaga or not is because content providers develop a reputation.
Eg: anything Dennis olden (spll?) people that have a clue know it will be absolute top level training in that venue. Canczech will always also be top training in a different venue, we expect that.
Why don't you try it post a clip, critique it and see what you learn from the shit fight that follows.
I don't like to post others clips up for critique.
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