So you have a real protection dog in your kennel ??? - Page 6

You talked about IDEAL sport dog.

The ideal sport dog has the traits for any venue.

Without sport dogs there is not even a well to run dry.

You dog vendors that rarely if ever kept a dog for more than a couple of months out of the hundreds of dogs you prep to look good for prospect selection should be paying tax to sport people for keeping the supply chain coming for you to profit from.

When selecting a puppy ( 6 - 8 weeks old ) for IPO / LE both sport handlers and LE handlers test for

health
agility
nose
prey drive
play drive
hunt drive
pack drive
food drive
aggression
hardness
courage
trainability
concentration
endurance
and more

The traits both camps are looking for are not different...although some IPO competitors believe in "prey monsters", and some LE handlers believe in "civil monsters", the majority of both camps is looking for the same kind of puppy (!), see the list above.
No serious IPO handler would overlook an aggressive puppy, as long as it shows prey, too, and no serious LEO would overlook a prey oriented pup, as long as it shows some aggression, too.

During raising and training the dogs may become "different" because of different personal goals, but not necessarily because of different genetic traits.

Last but not least due to monetary reasons there are less and less single purpose dogs out there, the dual purpose dog is the future, but this dog needs more prey and better social behavior than the "street dogs" of the "good old times"...just imagine an aggressive drug detection dog without prey drive.
 

Off topic right now, but I guess the East European "crosses" will be the International future of police/ real working dogs.
These dogs are cheaper because of location, and there is no need to care about breed clubs, no need to care about trials, no need to care about ancestors, right now no need to care about too many laws or Animal Rights Activists.

It´s like "back to the basics" - the best working dogs are bred, no matter the outlook - and the best puppies are raised and foundation trained by people who know what to do to pass the tests , sold as "green prospects" all over the world.

I don´t know if I like it, but it will work.

How long can you avoid health testing, titling and recording of ancestry until you have nothing left to draw from and you are just pissing in a dirty pool.

 Seems like a short term opportunity at the expense of what took generations of construction to build the pool to begin with.

Secondly why do you think prey drive can't be civil or hard, so not even close to true.

Why do some people think high prey dogs can't be protective, territorial or sharp, ridiculous.

if police departments/trainers value the aggression and sharpness of the type of dog that would generally be more associated with a “defensive dog,” why is it that they have no issue purchasing and training malinois which are 99% of the time completely the opposite?

BW finally show true color of ignorance. for BW in children menu portion: culmination of prey is dog make bite; mali high to extreme high in prey: it move, mali bite. good attribute of prey is fight, make for prey aggression. fero line, very much so yoschy, bring in gsd; much more genetic innate in working mali. sharpness definition and drive association much debate but quick to bite can easy come from prey aggression not only defense. mali with high drive in aggression wait for bite, blink of eye enough movement to strike. but man need working many dog with good mentor and keep mouth shut,listen and think so man learn to read dog and nuances.

susie: short term true maybe. long-term is new crosses - mali, gsd, other herder, terrier. some breeders of 'new line' are in third or more generation and dogs not only good but breeder have hold now on genetics and behavior of 'new' lines. two, three more generations, you see more than handful of good x-breed kennel produce specific dog have much consistent traits. if in field and see many dog every day, exciting times. working dogs and breeder move away from bad organizations make show dog for couches and magazine and 21st century replacement of hahn, schmitt, ritzi, kemmer are hard working in breeding shed and training and just around corner with 21st century lines. we work two x-gsd,one second other third generation from german kennel, and is both excellent in work and health. also have three x-mali from dutch breeder and same excellence. newest x-mali, fourth generation, not much different from x-gsd, total different genetic, but in behavior, drive, work, health much likeness. ... very exciting times for working dog and department and handler with good open mind.

I said " I don´t know if I like it, but it will work"...

"Secondly why do you think prey drive can't be civil or hard, so not even close to true.
Why do some people think high prey dogs can't be protective, territorial or sharp, ridiculous."

I never intended to say that...
For me a dog is the result of a lot of different traits, sure there are high prey driven dogs with high aggression, too. Personally I prefer balanced dogs ( maybe 60% civil, 40% prey, but that´s just my personal preference ) but I know that even mainly prey oriented dogs are able to do a very good job ( a high amount of very successful Malinois f.e.). The more positive "working dog" traits ( I tried to list some of them ) the better the chance to get a good dog, but in real life you have to deal with what you have - I still wasn´t able to find the "perfect" dog, but several dogs and handlers able to do a "perfect" job.

 

 

 

IN KNPV today no any SERIOUS breeder will mix a GSD with their malinois all of them are X malinois/dutch shepherd . The X is for not pedigreed or papers.

Ask all the big names and serious people in the KNPV Gerben Kamphuis,Celiks Home, van Leeuwen, Backhaus,Pegge , Lamers, Mokkink
etc etc nobody of themewill use any GSD with their malinois/dutch shepherds. Because they have nothing to improve
mix a GSD with malinois or dutch shepherds,

The origin from all the KNPV malinois is from the Belgian NVBK ringsport.
Also in Belgium no any serious ringsport  breeder will use any GSD to mix with their malinois

Just saying

In the 70,s 80,s 90 there was some influence from Great Dane,Pit Bull and GSD, Rottweiler. (longer time ago also some dobermann and bouvier)
for get bigger dogs,with more fight and power, today they don,t mix this other breeds
not anymore because they don,t need it anymore, There exist KNPV malinois
bigger and heavier than GSD standards , I have here a X dutch shepherd in my kennel
almost 28 inches and 94 pounds 

 

 

Civil is not a drive, people talk like it is.

Why would anyone who is a true breed enthusiast want to cross their dog with one from another breed? Perhaps the people who refuse to do this are just simply genuine followers of their favoured breed.

Upon reading the posts here it amazes me that the only reason for out crossing to another breed is solely for the purpose of producing an animal that is bigger and stronger with excessive aggression in the name of LE and Sport. There is nothing in that that does anything to enhance and benefit the GSD or any other breed. Too many people cannot control what they have.

Mackenzie

Maybe the breed concept has reached saturation point and its time to start thinking about dogs instead of breeds??

That suggestion is ridiculous. Do you want to see an increase in dogs of mixed races for the sole purpose of seeking something of no purpose or benefit to any particular breed and breeding a sharp increase in health issues. If that is your idea then IMO you would be better off taking up another hobby or job where you could cause no harm to a living animal.

Mackenzie