Long Stock coat genetics? - Page 2

@Hundmutter Thanks again for all your responses. Very informative!

I'll add this, as it may interest readers:

I don't know how long the SV has had the rule that LSH can only be mated to other LSH; I was never aware of it, since it did not apply to the UK (and has not been widely mentioned before when discussing German practises, as far as I've ever seen, presumably because it was seen as a less important issue while they were kept out of Showing). I do know this is stipulated in the Global Harmonisation Programme, which has now been around long enough for German breeders to operate at least most of it, but that has an expected 7 year introduction period for other countries' WUSV Member Clubs to fall into line.

I think if the SV continue to insist on it, the rule might trip up 'harmonisation' efforts. I say this because in countries where the national kennel clubs allow their GSD Clubs and breeders to cross-mate the two coat types, it might take longer than seven years to persuade those in the WUSV Member Clubs to change.  Not just because they are not the entirety of the GSD 'fancy' in many countries, nor because of the commercial temptation due to 'fluffy' pups selling so well, but because in many, many breeders firm opinion, there are other advantages. For instance, it often seems to be the case that lots of LSH dogs are better in structure under that coat, and that can be used to improve ALL stock. Now 'coaties' have official recognition, there seems no clear argument for only breeding them separately.

Perhaps we will get some clarity when Messler and Seteki reply to a list of queries about the Harmonisation Programme placed before them by the UK's WUSV Working Group ( a collaboration of our two WU Member Clubs) ?

I've always understoond, as Susie says, that the LSC gene was a pure recessive, so you should NOT be able to get a stock coat when mating two LSC. I DO know that show line dogs are bred for a plusher coat than working lines, and my show line female and her father could both get some awfully long hair on them in the winter time, if they were exposed to cold enough temperatures. This has me wondering if a stock coat actually COULD get a plush/long enough coat to be mistaken for a LSC?? Here's her dad:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=476201-erko-vom-haus-tchorz

It's hard to tell without being able to lay your hands on the dog, but in the spring of her first year, coinciding with me wanting to show her (of course!) Star had about 6 inches of hair hanging down from her belly, and very pronounced feathers on the back of her legs, just as her sire does in this photo. Actually, if I'm remembering correctly, she had even MORE hair than he does in this photo. (I never did take a photo of her in this state.)

I had to VERY CAREFULLY trim her with scissors to get her ready for the show ring!  (It was our one and only CKC show. I quickly found out she's not a CKC style dog.)

CKC show people have told me that Star's coat is actually rather 'dry' (not very plush) compared to most show dogs. Given the amount of hair that comes off her in shedding season, I don't see that as a bad thing! My working line dog sheds very little by comparison.

And yeah, it's quite obvious that neither Star nor her sire are going to be mistaken for LSC dogs, despite the long hair on their bellies and back of the front legs!

I'm just saying that with the show line people selecting for plusher coats, it COULD maybe happen. The expression of all genetic characteristics has a 'range', and by selecting for the extreme edge of that range, we can shift the expression (the way that particular characteristic looks = its phenotype) in whatever direction we want.

But genetically speaking, the genotype of the dog will STILL be stock coat. It's just the appearance that's been altered.

@Sunsilver. Thanks for the response. Erko looks like my current 11 year old male. Lots of hair but still a stock coat. The one advantage is every time we brush him we make a new puppy! LOL! I've seen other GSD with extremely short coats as well. I still believe both are dominant genes whereas the LSC is the only recessive gene in the GSD breed.

For the record what is the correct terminology to use for them? Long Stock Hair or Long Stock Coat?

The difficulty I have with that point of view is that it would be fine if all GSDs were genetically EITHER 'll' (long coat) or 'LL' (stock coat). Only.  But as 'Ll' has been shown to exist, and when you mate LL x Ll you get a statistical 50% of puppies @ Ll  AND  50% @ LL; as, when you mate Ll x Ll, you get 25% LL, 25% ll, and 50% Ll; and when you mate LL x ll the puppies are 100% Ll (ie 'normal', i.e. stock, coat) in phenotype (so zero long coats / gene for long coat, but ALSO zero genotypical for LL, stock only).  This was from a table worked out quite a lot of years ago, now, by Willis - but it covers the various matings that can take place with dominant / recessive traits, using the example of the stock / long coat characteristics, and I do not see that this basic genetics has been overtaken by something different in the years between.

At that time, Willis and other geneticists declared that "long coats can only occur when BOTH parents carry the 'l' allele. When only one parent carries this allele, long coats cannot be produced. The fact that a bitch does not give long coat puppies may not mean she is 'LL' - she may be Ll but always mated to LL dogs, or, if mated to an Ll dog, the expected percentage  do not turn up, through small litter size or pure chance."

 

The difference between genes is dependent upon the content and arrangement of the nucleotides that make up the DNA; some configurations may show a major effect in the actual animal, but the cause of the change may be a simple change in a protein molecule at biochemical level.  This, I believe, is what the more recent work on 'On & Off' switching in genes is based on.

 

To quote the Prof. directly : "With 39 pairs of chromosomes the number of possible combinations is legion and since the matter is controlled purely by chance, there is a chance element in genetics which one forgets at one's peril."

So, the reverse of the business of the bitch not being LL but Ll, yet not producing 'll' pups may also just be possible, depending on her being mated to a Ll or ll stud.  You just need to know the genotypes of the pair of dogs (rather than if they just look like stock coats) and have enough litters in your study to show signs of averaging out to expectations.

Realistically, other than in a heavily policed population such as the German system (and we do know that even that isn't completely infallible), where the two coats are being kept stringently apart, there have been and will continue to be matings that both involve and continue to produce 'Ll' individuals. These APPEAR phenotypically as 'normal' coats, and down the line maybe get mated together as apparently stock coated, but they ARE carrying a gene that says: together, they could produce LSH; and when we know a bit more about how the proteins On & Off switching works, we may better understand apparent aberations, like a LSH / ll pup turning up in an, apparently, "LL x LL" stock coated litter that has not had the pairs' DNA scrutinised for the LSH factor ? Or even an apparently stock / short coated puppy in an ll to Ll mating where both parents present as coaties ...

Now, since we are no longer rejecting LSH specimens as unsuitable dogs, 'faulty' GSDs, perhaps there is no point in keeping the two 'populations' separate in any case ?

 

Great responses, Hundmutter, thank you!

Sunny, I've seen 'stock' coats with much greater feathering and depth of body coats than Erko, in and out of Show rings over here ! And yet in the UK we don't even 'do' the description "plush" !

@Spruell - thank you. I realise I am speculating, somewhat !

 

OP: either is correct. The country of origin refers to langstockhaar / LSH, but the English translation is usually acceptable ...

Thanks again @Hundsmutter! You are a real asset to this forum! I always enjoy reading your posts.

So to break it down in simple terms.

LL = Stock Coat - dominant gene
ll = Long Stock Coat (Long Hair GSD) - recessive gene

Ll = Stock Coat - dominant carrying the hidden recessive gene

Breeding combinations: (based on law of averages)

LL x LL = 100% LL
ll x ll = 100% ll
LL x ll = 100% Ll - all display the LL trait
LL x Ll = 50% LL and 50% Ll - all displaying the LL trait
Ll x Ll = 25% LL, 50% Ll and 25% ll (possible that all or none will display Long Coat traits)
ll x Ll = 50% ll and 50 Ll (possible that all or none will display Long Coat traits)

Hopefully i didn't miss any possible combos. Please correct me if I am wrong.

If I am interested in purchasing a pup from a prospective litter I always look at the pedigrees of the dogs on PDB and look at their progeny. If I see a Long Coat produced by a particular stud I am interested in, I know he is a Ll. Its easier to determine this with established males as compared to bitches. However looking at her sire can determine if she has potential of being a Ll as well. Only breeding will tell.

👍khalirey -
1x1 of coat genetics

Hundmutter, coats haven't been allowed for breeding for decades in my country within SV, and when they were allowed around 10 years ago it was ( and it is ) not allowed to breed a stock to a coat.

You kind of mixed up the responsibilities of VDH, FCI, WUSV, and SV.
VDH is member of FCI, SV is member of VDH ( WUSV is just the attempt of SV to make other countries follow SV rules - with more or less success...).
Neither FCI nor VDH is responsible for the German breeding rules in regards of the GSD, only SV is ( as long as SV doesn't lower the ridiculous FCI breeding rules ).

This is different to most other countries that either follow FCI or AKC rules ( or the British Kennel Club rules - whatever ).

Read the FCI breeding rules and you know why a lot of things happen like they do - that's not much...

Because of that for us WUSV is very important, because none of the big organisations does care about breed specific rules, but as soon as a breed club decides to become a member of WUSV, they should follow SV rules sooner or later.
Up to now in most cases we are talking about "later", because the countries do have problems ( or don't want ) to establish any rules more stringent than for example FCI rules...
A lot of people do want a piece of the cake but don't want to work for it...

but SV is working on this problem finally.. 😎