Litters affecting health - Page 6

well at least we agree on one thing Jeff.no more than one C section.Carole S.

One more thing from me and it refers to a blanket policy of 4 litters, some dog breeds have a long reproductive lifespan and some breeds do not.  I am not sure why these were all lumped together and quite frankly, we know lots of dogs who should not be bred regardless of having registration and others who are wonderful genetic improvements for the breed.   Well, I suspect you UK people will have quite a conversation with your registration agency about much of this and I would understand that.  Really, go to the vet school library and start reading the articles because there is good research on this topic. 

I suspect this comes with trying to control those who do not give appropriate regard to their dogs and this unfortunately comes with punishing those who do well by their dogs. 

Maybe a better option would be to do as Europe does with GSD and that is, passing hips in order to get a litter registered?  At least there is a quality criteria here.  There are other examples.

Good luck

Nancy Rhynard
www.westwoodkennels.com

 Tess,

I finally heard from my vet friend.  He is a practicing vet at a large animal hospital (his wife is a vet too).  Here is what he wrote me:  

"Sorry I didn't get back sooner. I did not find specifics on "over breeding" through my veterinary literature either. Your question could be seen in 2 ways, but I think the answers are similar.

First if by over breeding you mean someone letting a dog have puppies each time she is in heat, then I think there would be a greater chance of complications and fatigue to the female. This is just an assumption though with little to no research or personal experience. It just seems that based on statistics, the more times you do something, the higher the chance something wrong could happen.

If you mean over breeding by letting a dog breed late into life (small breeds past 6-7 years, large breeds past maybe only 3-4 years), then at least my experience has shown that more of the C Sections or other complicated deliveries that I have had to deal with came in older females than in younger.

A lot more could go into this like parent size, breed involved, but overall I think that proper breeding would dictate breaks in between litters and a set retirement age for the female. If either of these is ignored, the health of the female and the livelihood of the pups is at risk.

Let me know if this was helpful or you need more info."

as was said by 1 vet that has a different "opinion" than my vet  or me. BIG DEAL!!

Definitely a hot topic! Here's some unbiased input. We are actually talking/debating 3 or four topics.

Here's what I'm seeing; this PDB covers the world, the world does not see things one way. Nor does it have one set of rules! The word "football", means different things. enough on that. Also, the word "paradigm", enough on that. 

We'll be technical for a brief moment........ "Litters affecting health" was the original OPs question/statement/debate/conversation.  All the other thoughts, opinions, voices, are nice but just a little off. I don't mind a little off on topics but in all reality let's try this: responsible, ( and what defines responsible, another debate?) but we'll say a responsible breeder, Hell, doesn't even have to be a breeder. Could be a first timer, but a responsible breeder would know his bitch or bitches better than the next one so that decision will fall on him/her. How or why would he/she want to harm the bitch, the goal or the future goals of the breeding. That concept and the puppy mill concept are two different worlds, two different mentalities................... so we need to get back on OPs original question. Certain individuals HAD documents/literature and others didn't. Some had Opinions, beliefs and feelings, others didn't. Some had first hand knowledge, experience(s), were there, some were not or didn't. In my eyes it's nice to debate on certain subjects. But the bottom line was what was being asked or looked for should come from those that know, have done, and have the documentation to verify one way or the other. We're not, or shouldn't be worried about so and so did what I don't think should have been done. That isn't what were here for. 

Unfortunately, what happens in the U.K. or Egypt or wherever might not have any bearing on what happens or how we do things in the U.S. of A. Or if something has been done a certain way for 100 years, might not be the best way or right way now in these times. That's not for me to say. Dogs are not humans and domesticated dogs are not in the wild. Hence wild and domesticated. Just like a cat and a feral cat. What works for one might not work for the other. What is right in ones' eyes might be wrong in another's. Passion is a wonderful thing; it means you care. I saw no belittleling, but people might have different definitions/interpretations of the word? Enough of my .02   

 Let's also keep in mind that many places in the UK, to my understanding, still ban prong collars. 

This idea that breeding back to back is bad is another one of those repeated/recycled  ideas that people just perpetuate without ever asking WHY?

I agree with Jeff; if a bitch loses condition after a litter, that's a weak bitch who shouldn't be bred in the first place, OR you take crappy care of her. 

3 litter at 3 is NOT a lot. Say a bitch is bred right when she turns 2 (mine was). She has the litter. Then you take a break one heat, then breed her the next. Take a break, then breed her the next. Those pups would be born right before or after she turned 4, with BREAKS IN BETWEEN. So, say you breed JUST ONCE back to back, then boom; she has had 3 litters at 3yrs old. Big deal. 

It's about health and strength and not numbers. As a mother who had SERIOUS health problems during pregnancy (since someone else brought it up), I would just as soon get it over with, have as many as I'm going to have one right after the other and then quit before it kills me. In fact, I asked both vets and doctors about this, and their feeling is that it is FAR less dangerous for the bitch to be bred back to back while young than bred yearly when older- hormones fluctuate wildly and the body is much better equipped for it shortly after a litter than after a long break. It makes sense to me.

This knee-jerk "puppy mill" idea coming from someone who breeds back to back is IMO, ridiculous. There is much more to it. Dogs have a certain number of heat cycles for a reason; has that occurred to anyone? 

I truly believe if everyone stuck closer to what Mother Nature dictates is good for the dog, arguments like these would be futile and less frequent, because nature would dicate who gets bred, how often, when, and with how many pups. 

This is to yu Jeni78.I think most of your post refers to things i,ve said in previous posts.I have been in GSDS since 1986 when my hubby and i bought our first Gsd female pup initially as a pet.The showing/breeding lark came about by accident,so as to say.Cassie was a healthy hardy bitch,was hip scored at nearly 2 and mated shortly after to a german import here in the UK.She whelped 11 pups w/o any problems and did it all herself with me and an experienced gsd breeder at hand.her 1st litter born 12/01/89.She was mated again at her next season(stud dog we wanted to use had been put up for sale to home /abroad),again she had 11 pups.These were not as even as the 1st litter,altho.she had been treated the same2nd litter born 8/11/89.She was never mated again,nufin to do with her health/condition.Her daughter,from her 1st litter Meggie,had 4 litters in all.....3  with breaks in between and 3/4 back to back.now Meggie was a slight bitch,some on english side of the fence would say skinny but that was how the german side animals were in late 80,s to mid 90,s.....Litter sizes were 10,12,7,9.No problems again in whelping,all litters even.The only litter i remember her losing condition badly was the litter containing 12.Her daughter Otti had 3 litters ...8,to my own dog,5 when according to a mating test expert she shouldnt have conceived as she hadnt ovulated when mated to stud????,then one of 12 aged 7,mated on day 20,oddish??This was the only litter she too lost condition on.IN FACT A NEIGHBOUR CALLED THE RSPCA.HER daughter only had the one litter by C section ...6 in litters.All bitches apart from Lily(Csection bitch)had no problems whelping ,all litters even .I resent your assumption that because the bitches lost condition they were either weak bitches or the owners took crap care of them.My dogs in the main have mostly been fed raw minced meats and good quality complete(kibble)i wouldnt touch complete these days.I FEED A RAW PREY DIET..Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and i would suspect that most here in the uk would only do back to back matings occassionally.IMO,i think its cruel to mate season after season even if the bitch was the healthiest,hardiest,happiest bitch with pups in the whole wide world.I suspect if left to their own devices they most probably WOULD NOT TAKE ALL THE TIME.This just my opinion.Carole S.

I'd be more worried what the pups would be like after breeding the bitch back to back, say even the third litter.  Puppies take alot out of a mother, as do human babies.

I know I was the 5th in a family of 8 and we were as back to back as you could get.  When I came down with Rheumatoid arthritis at a  fairly young age I started looking into  a lot of nutritional info.  One thing I learned that a mother only has so much to give a child and a child that is 5th in line, has an emptier nutritional tank to begin with than the 1st child.

My opinion would be, it would be the same for any animal. Frankly I wouldn't want a pup from a bitch that has had them back to back for more than 2 consecutive times, without the bitch taking a break and getting her body back in order so she has the proper nutrition to pass on to her pups for strong bones and a healthy body.

 Noddi, I read the first line of your post to me, as my name (or close) stood out, and to reassure you, no, my post had nothing to do with anything you wrote. In fact, I didn't even read your posts so I can't comment at all on what you wrote. I was merely giving my opinion to the OP and had skimmed the stuff in the middle. I can't handle lack of paragraphs, to be honest. 

 If the bitch is healthy and your plan involves breeding like this, you are not going to leave every pup there. You will cull them to a manageable size if it is a litter of 8 or more.