EPILEPSY IN THE GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG - Page 11

Epilepsy has several forms, this topic is specifically about cases known to be ideopathic (ie no other identifiable cause)

Interesting; in my area of the world epilepsy is by definition a seizure disorder (some now say disease) that is ideopathic. That is to say, if seizures are happening for a known reason, it's not epilepsy. 

Which area of the world is that Jill ?

Even an epileptic seizure which can be traced to some over-riding disease for its cause (ie isn't 'ideopathic') will still be regarded (at least in lay terminology ) as 'epilepsy'. Situations where the seizures are known by breeders to be geneticly linked to fitting dogs in the breeding history and yet are likely to be described by vets (who do not have that history on hand) as 'ideopathic' would seem not to fit your definition.

Nor do some other forms of epilepsy which AFAIK still retain the word as part of the disease's common title (maybe just in MY part of the world). And it is worse, where the owner ISN'T aware of the breeding history either !  Despite e.g. the UK Breed Health Coordinator having researched some kennels using dogs with as many as 200 lines back to the Eveley dogs named earlier, and established (UK) breeders thus being well aware of the genetic connection and its intermittent transmission. Whether through past accident or design. Difficult to do the necessary empiric research to scientifically 'prove' that connection & transmission, given the number of dead dogs involved ...

Perhaps my use of the word 'known' in the sentence you've highlighted was a misnomer, (and so should have been in quotation marks !) but it was used in the knowledge that people's vets have called what they are seeing 'ideopathic'. Even if they are made aware of concerns about the dogs ancestry.

This thred has gone Off Topic several times because of discussions on what breeders should or should not be doing, and to take a/c of submissions by people who wish to add descriptions of other circumstances which may or may not have involved seizures. Just trying to reduce the clutter !

 

Thought that I would give another little idea as food for thought. I know the Royal Vet College here in the UK is doing trials with Pro plan using MCT and there is now a Pro plan diet with MCT added to help epileptic dogs.

I also know that America have been doing, and are still doing trials with CBD for epilepsy. As I am thinking of trying this on my epi-lad, I wondered if anybody had any feedback on this.

Hi folks,
I'm late to the discussion, haven't read all of the replies yet, and so on. Please forgive me if I am covering old ground. For what it's worth, ictal episodes (epilepsy) are manageable- provided the condition is PRIMARY and not secondary to a brain tumor, lesion, cancer, hyponatremia, and other serious causes. Depending on what therapy you and your vet choose, you may discover that your Level V working dog isn't quite as drivey as it used to be. (Eg. Phenobarbitol and diazepam (Valium) can really put the tranquility in tranquilizer.) Other therapies might not have these effects. In our experience, our dog was able to continue with his work. He could rise to his full abilities when called upon. But his resting state was no longer an intense, Level V dog. Oh, and our dog eventually acclimated to epilepsy and was no longer anxious in his post ictal state.

BTW, environmental or psychological stress can trigger refractory seizures.

Bottom Line, short and sweet: Epilepsy isn't an automatic Euthanize result in most cases. It CAN be managed inexpensively. (Our cost for meds was $1.82 per day not counting vets and labs.) I hope that folks will have the good character and class to NOT breed epileptic GSD dogs. This is to protect the consumer, to protect the progeny from a nasty, cruel existence, and to protect the breed standard.

I hope this helps.

Greg, Thank you for that info on treatment. That is great, where it works - and it does / has worked for many owners of epileptic dogs. Unfortunately, as I am sure you are aware, the drugs do not work so well in a proportion of cases; just as in humans, some dogs respond better to the medical regime than others. Where it doesn't help, fits can go on escalating, to the point where they are either extremely disruptive of everyday life for the dogs' owners; or force the decision re euthanasia onto them. Either way they go from owning a loved & 'normal' pet to having to constantly nurse a very sick one, or take the gut-wrenching decision to give sleep rather than continued suffering. I for one don't wish that on anyone. And seizures can mean continued suffering: often enough dogs injure themselves or bite or are very debilitated afterwards; sometimes it is regarded as though they are no more aware of the seizure than if they had been asleep. No doubt that is sometimes true, but many who have lived with it will tell you horror stories about coping with it when its NOT like that.

Far better to avoid breeding dogs which might have the condition through an ancestral connection, in the first place ? Yes its about having 'class', but its also about having - and using - information.

Which area of the world is that Jill ?

Even an epileptic seizure which can be traced to some over-riding disease for its cause (ie isn't 'ideopathic') will still be regarded (at least in lay terminology ) as 'epilepsy'. Situations where the seizures are known by breeders to be geneticly linked to fitting dogs in the breeding history and yet are likely to be described by vets (who do not have that history on hand) as 'ideopathic' would seem not to fit your definition.

I'm in North America. 

Here if there is a "cause" - which would be brain tumor, kidney failure, brain trauma, poison/toxins, etc.; usually such causes are identifiable and thus the disorder/disease is not epilepsy. If they rule all that out and the seizures condinue, it's epilepsy which means in and of itself, "seizure disorder with no known cause; e.g. 'ideopathic.'"  This is to say that seizures =/= epilepsy, necessarily, at least in NA.

Even if epilepsy is inherited/genetic (which it almost certainly is), it's still epilepsy with no known cause; thus, ideopathic. If all that makes sense. 

It's one of those things where to be 100% sure after ruling out toxins and other disease, you have to drop several thousand on a brain MRI that, if normal, indicates epilepsy.  It would be interesting to those who don't have to see their dog suffer with this affliction, I'm sure. 

I'm just about to start medication for my epileptic dog as his last two seizures were worse than usual and last time I had to give him emergency meds (Valium) for the first time. Up until recently his seizures, while traumatic to see, have been relatively short and infrequent. It's been a few months since he had one but in the last three weeks he had two which were much worse than before and clearly escalating, so the time has come for medication.  I'll keep you all posted on how he responds to medication. He's already on so much for his gastrointestinal disease that I feel like I'm living with a sepagenarian given all the pill bottles around; but he's only three. 

CBD oil is not something I'd ever give my animals. In general I dislike supplements, consider them a trend at best and potentially harmful in general, and see people throwing CBD oil at dogs for every little thing with no evidence of its efficacy nor it's detrimental effects. (Also, I hate weed myself, and I'd not want to make an animal feel like I feel on weed. Seems like some folks like it, but I'm not one.)

 

 

Jillmissal, gotcha, even where 'we' / the geneticists do not necessarily know exactly which genes / combinations of alleles / 'on/off' triggers for these groupings actually transmit epilepsy, yes getting an MRI scan might confirm (at an expensive level, of course !).

But we DO know at least most of the ancestral dogs implicated. We DO know the fitters, or producers of fitters, that breeders have continued to use in their bloodlines, for one or another reason; and we know that epilepsy passed on through those genes can be erratic in its manifestation. Skipping generations; presenting in a couple of pups in a litter but not their siblings. Because 'we' - i.e. longterm highly committed breeders and others - have observed this. But we cannot really expect the veterinary profession to call it as we see it, without being able to point to particular alleles on particular loci in the genome. So yes its colloquially 'ideopathic', but we do have lots of evidence surrounding its transmission.

And breeders (regular OR newbies / one-offs) who ignore the history do so not just at their own peril, but the wider effect on the breed as a whole. (And its poor longsuffering owners !). That's what I wish we could get across to everyone ! But its like you & I've noted on another thread - you can tell people til you are blue in the face but if they don't want to take in on board, ain't a lot you can do ?

I'm with you on the CBD oil, too !

According to the experts CBD oil does not make you or animals feel like when you take "weed". How many times have we heard success stories in folk taking this for epilepsy, many!! Have never used it myself for any ailment but never say never IMO.

I think it may well work for some people MrD - but people can tell you what they are experiencing, as well as you assessing them externally.  Dogs & cats cannot do that. If it makes them feel awful, we may not know.

I appreciate CBD oil is not the same as smoking weed, it just comes from the same original plant, is treated differently, and (most) does not contain any THC. (There are some types available which deliberately do !)  My concern about it is the same as with all supplements, people rave on about how good they are without them being subjected to proper tests; everything in that line I have ever tried with dogs has not really helped much at all. These things can go straight through the system without benefit - basically most of the time you are paying high prices and getting expensive pee !   Just as with proper medicines, sometimes we get a bad reaction; conversely, sometimes there's a dog (or person) who is genuinely significantly helped, because their individual metabolism manages to get something from whatever you are using - but mostly, it's like "Superfoods", it is snake oil.

 

How many times have we heard success stories in folk taking this for epilepsy, many

I guess I personally haven't - but at best those are still anecdotes which is in the bigger picture, useless. I wait for hard data. One thing I have taken on board and remind myself daily no matter what I'm doing is "we see what we want to see;" the placebo effect is alive and well in everything we do. 

I have so many questions no one has answered well; if CBD doesn't have THC and doesn't act like weed, then why do people promote it for "caliming" effects etc? Rhetorical question, but what Hundmutter said is true - dogs can't tell us what they feel. What they said is also true - supplments, except those properly tested and recommended by veterinarians (it's a short list), are just snake oil and until there's evidence otherwise, CBD oil is just more of the same IMO. We KNOW what helps seizures; we should be giving that under the guidance of a veterinarian.