Linebreeding on a male ancestor compared to a female - Page 5

 

@ duke1965 Rik, in american show breeding its not about the breeder, nor the dog, the professional handler is the main ingredient for succes LOL

Agreed.  My dog would have done much, much better in the show ring with an experienced competent show handler than she did with me [rolleyes]  I've posted about our experience elsewhere.

 

@TIG

Apple, not so. It has been proven in recent years that the female contributes more germ plasma than the male (>60%). Plus ONLY the female passes on the genetics 4 the mitochondria which is the energy powerhouse for each & every cell & therefore the body.

AND also remember the legacy of Secrtariat in Thoroughbreds.  Dissed as a producer of mares not stallions BUT only the girls could inherit and pass on the "big heart" gene  which contributed to his record breaking career. 

Besides the genetic material, the female also provides the prenatal environment and mothering to the litter and individual pups, so there is even more influence than just the genetic contribution.

 

Depending on what I was after, I would try to linebreed on both parents. One of my goals is to preserve the particular bloodlines of my bitch, so while looking for an acceptable stud, I'm conidering the genetic material/lines of male and female lines on both sides of both the bitch and potential studs and going back. Yeah, makes for a complicated mess.

 

Extra mud, but something I think needs to be considered.

 

Hundmutter, I can only speak to what I've observed myself over the years, whether it's WRT to sled dogs, GSDs, horses, or cattle--breeding programs that are founded on one or more exceptional females, and which make good use of those maternal genetics by giving more than cursory consideration to the maternal lines of prospective mates when choosing them, were more successful than programs that relied solely on the sire lines, or which bred to the 'name' males primarily because that would be a selling point for the offspring. Of course, I could be wrong--but given the choice of a pup from a breeding based on strong maternal lines and one from a paternal-centric breeding, I'll be more likely to take the risk with the former. 

This article  is directed at pigeon breeders, but the concept is the same, and it does a better job of explaining it than I can do.  

I agree to that but usually the top producing female German Shepherds are rather oversized and relatively less pigmented than the top winning females whereas the top producing males are very complete all round so it’s difficult to decide.Admittedly linebreeding Palme Wildsteigerland, Otti Trienzbachtal and I dare say Nala Holtkamper See does work.

Hexe, I think you do yourself a dis-service; your original explanation was much clearer than ANYTHING in that pigeon-fanciers article. Aside from having to wade through a lot of paragraphs containing some slightly dodgy angles on male v. female roles across the spectrum, when I finally got to the stuff on mtDNA it did not, to me, seem to amount to a 'hill of beans'. There is still no clarity about which 'bits' of mtDNA provide the sort of excellent strength etc that could be seen as a 'legacy' passing from one female to her descendents (of either sex, and certainly not limited to the females); apart from the extent to which mtDNA provides 'energy' and 'vitality' through originating enzymatic activity, it seems to me that what is passed in mtDNA is at least as likely to be faulty material as it is anything outstanding ! And as Mark Hyman MD seems to be best known for his dietary advice, especially in re. so-called 'Superfoods', I have difficulty in taking his quoted contribution seriously, either, I'm sorry !

Nope; while I'm happy to accept that there are some excellent female GSDs around, and that some or most of their pups inherit their good qualities, I still believe it takes two - of the best - dogs to 'tango'; and that breeders get better results from careful & knowledgeable pairings of male AND female, than from relying on the good offices of EITHER sex to be 'prepotent'. Its been said many times, "All pups are a crap-shoot".

Helmut Buss wrote an article for the SV Magazine in 2017/18 (lead-up to the ' Progeny Groups of Females ' Pilot @ the 2018 Sieger - anyone know what is happening to that in relation to future years ?) in which he said about the Dam line in pedigrees :

"...you often come across bitches who, due to their low numbers of offspring, have little chance of proving astonishing hereditary performance - and this occurs down the generations. However, this makes good breeders stand out, since they not only use highly awarded breeding bitches to retain their dam line, they also use good, solid bitches to continue their proven dam line, and that is precisely what often makes a difference when compared with dogs used for breeding. Sire lines are often not continued with sons who did not make it to the top of the podium. Unfortunately this results in a genetic bottleneck - a depletion of the bloodline variety in sire lines - which results in greater inbreeding. Paying close attention to dam lines offers yet another significant advantage. The breeder knows their own dam line in all its manifestations, particularly in relation to health, the animals' fitness, vitality, fertility and performance, and they know how to handle these traits."  He also quotes a number of very successful direct dam lines:  (some of which will be well-known, historically)

"1    Welle Starrenburg, Farah Starrenburg, Connie Klosterbogen / Cia Klosterbogen.

2    Wala Sturmwolke, Fina Badsee, Palme WL / Ulme WildsteigerLand.

3    Wilma Kisselschlucht, Flora Konigsbruch, Unda Wienerau.

4     Kena am Seeteich, Nadja am Seeteich, Waleah am Seeteich, Amanda am Seeteich, Yakimo Feuermelder.

5     Ginga Kristallsee, Wari HoltkamperSee, Riska HoltkamperSee, Orbi HoltkamperSee, Nala HoltkamperHof, Lieselotte HoltkamperHof, Idanja HoltkamperHof.

6     Perle Salzgitter Milieu, Lea HoltkamperSee, Fanny Frankengold, Darling Frankengold, Grace Frankengold, Galina Frankengold.

7     Antje Hulsbergtal, Olli Hulsbach, Raika Deutschen Adel, Unja Deutschen Adel, Ginja v d Maibuchen, Zoe v d Maibuchen, Olivia Pallas Athene, Xolly Pallas Athene.

8     Lady WittelsbacherSchloss, Ora WittelsbacherSchloss, Assie WittelsbacherSchloss, Vina v W-S-, Connie v W-S-, Romi v W-S-, Lusi v W-S-, Ronja WittelsbacherSchloss, Fendi Agilofinger, Wulkana BierstadterHof.

9     Uska Ochsentor, Feli Ochsentor, Karma Ochsentor.

10    Victoria Burg Reichenstein, Helge Burg Reichenstein, Quennja B R, Zoe Burg Reichenstein.

11     Fanta v d Zenteiche, Jasmin Zenteiche, Pia Z-, Kelly Z-, Zara Z-, Marla Z-, Leona Zenteiche.  (In this 11th example we can see a very successful dam line that goes down 7 generations.)"

As Herr Buss goes on to say, "A presentation and competition for maternal families at the SV's events would certainly bring the importance of breeding bitches to the fore in future."

To clarify, @apple is right, 50% DNA comes from each parent for the most part. In humans, females inherit 50/50 while males inherit 51/49. Not sure if that is true for dogs. Genetic makeup is, though, only part of the equation. Which genes are expressed in an individual will vary wildly. It's true that mitochondrial DNA (which makes up 0.0003% of total DNA in humans; that is to say, not much) comes from the mother, but it's also likely that the male has more of an edge in which genes are expressed; paternal genes tend to be more dominant and more likely to be expressed.

The idea that the bitch has a stronger genetic influence on the pups is not borne out by science.

While linebreeding on a strong dam line does not really genetically seem to be preferential, behaviourally I think there is a strong case for such a practice. It is the dam who establishes base learned behaviour, sets the foundation for the pups in her reactions to environment and stimulus and in general how she 'takes care of the house' and cleanliness/motherliness will make a difference to the pups, IMO. A 'good mother' will produce well-adjusted, healthy pups with a strong example of behaviour characteristics. Anyone who has seen a 'spooky' bitch knows what her pups are like.

@koots An excellent point!

These absentee fathers don't contribute much to raising the kids, do they? (lol)