some thoughts on inherited/genetic character vs. environmental trained - Page 2

every dog passes though novelty of experience from born to death, irregardless of character. thus every dog during the life obtains learning from own experience or created artificially by human. just must be understood and remembered that the artificially implemented ability to desirably react/respon to stressful situation is not the same as ability of dog to handle similar stressful situation on it's own.
when first can provide more easier handling of the dog, the second will deliver assurance of reliability of dog.

yogy, your remark about chopper is really a good one.
not many can test and see their dog reaction with real chopper in backyard, but everyone can do test and see predisposition of dog to handle such stress by utilizing available means.

Yogi, I live in the inner city, plenty of gunshots, not too many horses or cows. My dog/puppy gets exposed to anything I can think of and can get into, you name it, I have been there or done it, within reason of course.
Yes, I have brought a dog to a helicopter, same as small and big boats, loud planes, stood on tarmac while take off and landing, swim, gun range with different types of ammo being shot.
Again, a good dog with stable rock solid nerves will not have a problem with any of those things, a dog that is not so genetically blessed, will for sure show you that its not going to work out as well.

So, yes, I expose my puppy to that too as well as warehouses big enough and loud enough to drive 18 wheeler in, 110 degrees heat, that 43.33 degrees to you, it currently feels 102. Again Yogi, I have nothing against showing the dog what the real world looks like, but, I do it expecting that the dog will be able to deal with it and looking to see if that are any gaps I need to pay attention to.
I dont subscribe to the theory that the dog decides who is a friend and who is not, thats my job and I expect the dog to act accordingly. Socially neutral or aloof with strangers, I do not like attention whores, kind with family members in the house, handler oriented.
I can train a dog I want to keep that shows me the proper genetics Yogi, I just dont believe that I have to make a dog NOT be afraid of loud noises or puddles of water.

Valk a steel factory nobody can do this is there backgarden have you ever heard the noise of a hundred hammers hitting steel. Or a hydraulic hammer pound hot steel All day. The heat the noise the whole atmosphere will shake many a dog and iv brought at least 20 adult dogs to this environment and not one was willing to walk around in comfort. The problem here is these members want to rely on genetics alone tells me a lot about ther dog and the advice they give to others. It is so important to have the strongest genetics to start the dog on the correct road but you also need to help the dog realise it's full potential. 💪

yogy, perhaps in my above reply supposed to be in bold the word "predisposition".
same as with chopper, not many have next door steel mills, neither many of dogs, even LE/military, will ever experience visit to one. but pretty desirable that every dog's owners know potential of their dogs to be exposed to such experience and their prospective threshold to handle it.

Hired its not about not making the dog afraid of the world it is about opening the dogs to the world. See that is we we think different valk I want my dogs to ale reach the full potential it can. It is my responsibility to breed the best genetics I can and I'm not talking podium dogs Im talking versitale dogs strong nerves strong bone correct size good head strong pigment and so on exactly what a GS is ment to be. And how I do that is to wiggle out different weekness ond other traits I deem unworthy of the German shepherd. I introduce my dogs to every shock factor you can think of.  Iv never had a dog come back to me from the police prison airport or any other agency including members of the f. B. I. So for that reason I will stick to what I know has worked for the last 15 years of selling a few dogs. And by the was selling dogs or breeding dogs is not my job it my hobby. I haven't breed a litter in 2 years. 

Yogi, I cannot speak for others, but, I can tell you that my dogs have worked in any condition I have expected them to work in. No, I do not have a steel plant around me, I dont think I have ever seen one anywhere, but, it seems that you do because you keep harping about it and ignored all the other environmental aspects I spoke of.
Genetics first, foremost and always. Environment shapes those genetics, exposure to the environment does not cancel them out, but, it does show you what you have at the end of your leash.
Anyway, I was not trying to point out what I expose a puppy to when I have to, I was pointing out that socializing the puppy around what you have will also expose that dog to it and you can judge if its the right dog for the job or not.
Have a great evening Yogi.

 

by Hired Dog on 14 April 2020 - 13:04

As I have said earlier in a different post Rik, I expose/socialize, to see what is there genetically, not to build or instill something that is not there.
This affords me to experience first hand what I am dealing with, if the dog or the puppy has what I want to continue on with it.
For me, it has always been and will always be, genetics first, foremost and environment second.

 

This is exactly what I said in the other topic. I'm not exposing to build something that isn't there, but to weed out weaknesses. If I get a dog that doesn't have genetic stability, they go back. I don't have the time, money nor the space to keep a dog that isn't genetically confident and I will never compromise my breeding program with environmentally unsound dogs. 

As for choppers or other things, I don't have to worry about that either. We train by, on and around a military base with the airfield right next. We have Jets starting right next to us, Artillery fire every now and then, Canons going off, Gun ranges... my dogs are more than enough exposed whether I seek it out or not doesn't matter. I don't go out to specifically expose for something. The environment I live in naturally exposes my dogs to a whole lot of shit. From Tanks, to Jets, to Gunfire... so yeah, excuse my french but Yogi can go and stick it or go and squat on a potato. Whatever he chooses.

well, kind of the reason I started a new thread, rather than adding to the previous one relating to this subject.

and despite the welcome "drama" (seemed like old days) I feel like 100% of responses are pretty much on the same page. character first starts with genetics, regardless of venue.

is there really that much difference in one persons experience in "my dogs, I breed for solid character, and expect them able adapt quickly to new exposures/experiences) and another person's experience "I start with solid character and expose them to every possible experience in my sphere to test them"

I find no fault with either.

but then,
I'm just been there, done that,
praying don't pizz or shitz yourself at judges approach,

Rik

Rik ,
I know aht your message is . But you language is not correct . So I put this out for those to understand cleary such that all the previous comments and posts made in this thread as well as other threads , makes sense.

A dog's " Character " is not determined by genetics. " Character" has more to do with " the quality of personality ". For example , a dog can have " Confidence " . Confidence is the quality of the dog's personality . Genetic traits are 'fixed traits " they cannot be added to or lessened . [ unless of course genetic modifaction and the use of CRISPER occurs] . A dog's confidence can be increased or decreased , meaning that it can be changed !

To illustrate let me contast ' confidence' to a true innate genetic trait , " the ability to endure stress/ the stress level of a dog" . No matter what we do , we cannot change that ' ability to cope and endure stress ' in a dog . If a dog has a low stress level it will throughout it's ife .... a high stress level the same .... the stess level stays unchanged throughout it's entire life .

So when people state they breed for genetics , they are refering to those and only those , Immutable Genetic Traits and not to Character of Personality traits [ Character traits , for short terminology] .

Of course you breed for character traits. Temperament is a character traits. Dog to Dog aggression is a character trait and inheritable. Handler aggression is inheritable and a character trait...

 

Dog aggression can be straight up genetics or created. It's not all black and white. There are dogs that have been locked up and/or abused, neglected and what not and they still walk out like nothing ever happened with very little environmental issues or fear towards human... genetics are funny and not just 50/50...