some thoughts on inherited/genetic character vs. environmental trained - Page 5

   Rik I will try to post a picture in the next few days**, [ not sure how to add a photo yet ] out of courtesy , even though I am not one for posting pics . The main reason : My mentor advised us to never show off and to demo because people , instead of taking your advice and instead of being happy for you, the majority ... they will be resentful . In life , I have nothing to prove , .. I have in my life accomplished and achieved all that I set as my goal . So do understand , I do not post or comment out of the need to boost my ego nor do I need to impress nor attain approval from anyone . This one time I make an exception .

   GK ... I was not sure what to exactly make of the statement. I can interpret that statement by looking at it from different angles. This part of the statement : " if dog fit - take into work. if not - don't waste time and effort, simply write off and move to next. There are some endeavers that the dog must have the make up to perform that specific task and endeavor. So given that we cannot make a dog what it is not , nor a person , t  if the dog does not have what it takes to do the task , and that task is critical in importance , then maybe it is best find the  mature dog to fit the bill . Most often , we can see right off the bat in a pup that it will not have what it takes. For example , at 6.5 -7 weeks it is THE time to look at a puppy if you want to show it. Because that is theoretically the exact structure the dog will have as an adult. So , if you do not see good angulations , a good front , a good croup at that time  , then 99% you will not see this better as the dog matures to into adulthood. With working line pups ,  if you do not see a dog that has a fast recovery time to novel startling stimuli at 7, 8 , 9 weeks , then you will not see that as an adult either. In that sense I understand Valk's comment. So for some endavors that are so so important to succed at , then : the big then*  is , to test a dog and get that dog you know will definately suite your purpose , at 1.5 years old .You can  see what that dog has develped into and you will get what you need as a dog. Rik addressed this . But , one has to know what to look for in the dog for performing .

     Now... As I wrote , give a dog , a pup or an adult , a task and the dog will tell you . To illustrate:  Search and Rescue...  This is applicable whether I look at a pup or a mature dog : One feature I like to see if I observe a 8. 9 week puppy - I see if the dog is social as I handle it and I fet a feel for the pup interacting with me. I have the pup sit in amy lap and then   I have someone go off a little distance ,say 20 feet from me . I have them invite , the puppy . So I expect the pup to go to that person when enticed . Perhaps stay with that person a few moments , just a fw moments . THEN ... I want to observe the pup leave that person and come back to me on it's own accord . WHY .... because that is what I want from the dog a few years later as an adult . I want the dog to do the same , if  I let it loose to scent and find a lost person. I want the dog to look for another person and then be willing to come back to me to indicate the find and take me to the person. So if you want to , or need to , do specific tasks , you have to have the dog ' tell you ' that is has what it takes to do those tasks. Sometimes as I illustrated we can see this in a very very young puppy.

   This part of the statement: 'don't waste time and effort, simply write off and move to next." I qualify this . Of course there are times we cannot have everything in a dog. I write that traits and attributes have qualitative and quantitative aspects. So people that come to me to discuss dogs and doing sport - I say this to them : you simply need the dog that can do what it needs to do . Granted the dog has to have at least the minumum genetics to do the sport, but thereafter , how much more do you need ? Do you need the most courageous dog to do sport . Do you need the most aggressive , hardest dog either , NO ,  NOT ALL Sports !!!  A number of times I have seen a GS not even chase a ball as pup , but suddenly it blossoms [ I believe that there are latent genes, too ] . I have seen GSs like this and some went on to get SCH 3 titles and others French Ring 1 and Brevet titles . So in this respect I have seen people with no patience with dogs . Personally I have never ever tossed away a GS that I owned and that is more than 30 , pup to adult in my lifetime. Many times people can work with what they have. I wrote before , we did not value ourselves by being able to train dogs to very very high levels , THAT  was no big deal for us . We were expected to be able to do that and certainly did . We valued ourselves on training dogs that were less gifted compared to the high end sport dogs , or dogs that were weaker in area or temperament deficient  . Anyone figuratively speaking can take a dog and have it bite , especially if that bite comes from 99% genetics- there is almost nothing to teach but more so , attend to control . Take a dog that is not as courageous or the highest in confidence have that dog achieve .. so a dog might not be as fast , the hardest biting dog , the best fighting dog , the best aggressive dog , not police material ,,  but many an do sport work with their owners .  tSo they don't qwulaify for certain other avenues -  se going to can every dog because of that , when they can do something other ? Are we going to can every dog that cannot fo PP or olice work ? Beside , any dog ,    dog , can do scent work .. As a matter of fact if you understand a dog - then you surely know a dog is   99% nose !! Not everybody needs a Rambo and if you have a dog that can simply go out and work with you and have fun , it lacks other traits and attributes , just enjoyn life in another endeavor with the dog IMOp.. Nothing wrong with that ! What many people do   is to put on the back burner the most important feature which is :  the Human and Dog Relationship. And if you can have fun working with the dog and you have to put in a little more effort, that is not wasting time IMOp ....

 

 

I am having trouble  posting picture  for Rik . I hit the icon button , the one with the mountian and the dot ,  but no " upload  " box appears . Can some one help ? 

cent, I do understand having trouble posting pics. many do. mine are posted, so waiting for yours.

I really do not understand someone such a great expert, great dogs, sv contacts like you, that does not already have dogs posted here.

I have my shit# GSD posted here. also if I have to defend dogs that I placed SV, SV/ AKC with SV Judge/ Handlers, SV placings, whatever I claim, I can show a dog.

at the bottom of the day, I guess what I'm saying is a saying from early Texas days.

"ALL HAT, NO CATTLE" for you

you nothing but a faker without a dog on a dog chat board.

best,
Rik

I have so many videos of search training... what Centurion described is also known as a "Refind". Dog goes out to subject, comes back to indicate, goes back to subject, comes back to handler etc. Here is a video with Judge. He was a very similar dog to Athos. Unfortunately I lost Judge very early due to an injury.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3X0FovMMYU

 

Question: what does one do with the dogs that get 'canned' as not (genetically or otherwise) suitable for the task you get them for ? If they have some serious phobia - shiny floors, open staircases - (rather than, say, not 'enough grip' - for you), that might be interruptive of daily life, do you wish them on someone else ???

Not such a problem with Showring faults, a dog with the wrong number of teeth can be happily retired to a family home where they do dock diving or some such; but I can think up plenty of situations where re-homing would be questionable.  And yet, the drive to find the dog 'perfect' for whatever activity one is committed to goes on. I can recall a time when most ordinary people just got a dog, and made the best of it; so what if it did not herd their sheep 'as well as' the next door farmers, so what if it had phyical faults or health problems, so what if it had a funny little quirk about railway tracks ... it was their dog and they loved it and kept it.

 

Re Photographic evidence. I think Rik is being a bit harsh. I too don't have a lot of photographs here. There are several reasons: I don't habitually carry a mobile phone capable of photography or video with me and even if / when I did, I was too engaged with what the dog(s) I was with were doing to be messing about with a camera of any description. I am not good with photography at the best of times, I'm one of those who as often gets peoples' heads missing or my thumb over the lens, as not. I have had dreadful problems even with the best of advice and help posting any pics into PDB posts. This may be because I am clumsy, too, about editing my own button pushing typos (and you all  can judge Cent on HIS posts in that regard Ha Ha). Or it could be about the security settings I keep on my computer getting in the way.

I have always been reluctant to put pictures of dogs I've worked / lived with up, since they frequently did not belong wholly to ME and if I could not get their owner's permission I did not consider I had it. Indeed I am under an NDA from a previous employer that prevents me from talking in any detail about their business (including the dogs) and I take that to include photos - much as I'd love to be able to show you some of those dogs, and depite that it hasn't stopped an ex-boyfriend putting them all over FB (and taking credit for them !). My mentor is dead, so I can't ask her for permission as far as the Showdogs go.   

Do not believe posting pics is ANY guarantee of anything. They could be of any dogs you happen to have been on a field with; most of you would be none the wiser. Saying you are reluctant to accept what someone is saying because they do not post pictures is a little ridiculous if they are saying enough for you to judge whether WHAT they post makes any sense, even if you do not agree with them.

Well this is a blast from the past, the old post pictures/video as proof of dog ownership debate, lol,lol. No one here has to prove anything with pics so drop it now. I heard enough of that in the past and that's where it stays.

Hundmutter made 100% sense with this

" Do not believe posting pics is ANY guarantee of anything. They could be of any dogs you happen to have been on a field with; most of you would be none the wiser. Saying you are reluctant to accept what someone is saying because they do not post pictures is a little ridiculous if they are saying enough for you to judge whether WHAT they post makes any sense, even if you do not agree with them. "

If a member are given a point of view on each point that is made. and Is always trying to add to some one's point and make it better and always trying to control the topic and people come to him. shows knowledge on every topic with very little to back it up.most of this stuff I can read in a book and summarize. When your been told to do some a certain way because the member says it works and other ways don't work as well it would definitely be nice to see imo.
Imo asking for a video is a normal response to this type of member. It's up to the members to post if they want iv been asked many times and so has other members and on mod has ever defended. Me and told people to back off. I would love to see some video out of cent not for spite or failure but imo with what he writes it might just be amazing. Seems a lot of people here have put alot of faith in him

I found Centurion's last post helpful to this discussion, as well as the 1st 2 paragraphs of Hundmutter's last post. Seems to me both have taken a drive or two around the block (as have others here) and have something of value to add. If their information is elementary, so be it. Disagreeable - then counter point. Yes, videos and pictures, pedigrees (namely personal ones) as back up are also helpful.




 

I again tried to upload a pic .. But I am still having the same problem . As I mentioned , I would post pics for Rik . Videos ... the reason I don't post video is that  , and this is the honest truth , I do not have videos. I am not 20 , 30 , 40 , 50 years old.. we just didn't have the video craze back then as there is now . Many of the dogs that I have had and that I talked about have already died. I have been training GS over 30 years , over !! . So , I did not have a video camera . I don't even use video camera to this day !! - I have no need to video anything , even my dogs  today , nor selfies and that stuff . Last year was the first year I got a fancy do hickey cell phone. But I do have some pictures of my dogs that I would gladly share if you want to see them  . I write so much .. because I cannot show people with videos but I do  want them to to understand what other people have taught me . I want  to stimulate their thinking - I am not trying to make people  think and to ltell them how to live their life with their dog the way I see fit. Every dog /person is differrent. My take is not all things work for all dogs and people alike- hence different thoughts ! So if you don't like what I write , if you don't like what I share .. fine . But I do find intersting that some people get into a tizzy - just dismiss it  . Or write something that  straightens  the matter out and  corrects with rationale .  Do and think what you should- That is what I want - for everyone to think for themself . Even though I had a training school and bred GSs [ only 1 or 2 litters/year ] the dog world was not my livelihood unlike many people on the site whose dogs were / are  their livlehood. Other Professions were my livlehood. Believe me , the dog world ,the GS World , is minor to what I have accomplished in my life in my other Vocations.

      The dog world is not much different than the human world but people make the dog world some sort of mystery that needs to be understood .  Als everybody's dog is of value. All GS have something to offer us.My background  has allowed me to better understand dogs , even more at times than people. Do you think learning theory is different between a human and a dog ? Do you think understanding a dog is all that much different than a human ? Does a dog have different traits than a person ? Many of the traits that we talked about : stress levels , hardness , social ability , aggression , confidence , courage , hyperactivity , recovery etc etc are they different  in a dog from a person ? So , if you understand people , then how are some  ,  telling me that they find what I write so amazing that you need a video to see what I am talking about ? It is not all that different in many many respects , some differences , yes . But in many respects it is not . Do we not test personality traits with people and size people up in street talk ?. Do we not automatically make judgements about people immediately when we first meet them ? . Do we not interview people for jobs to see what their innate talents and learned skills are , that they have or are lacking ? Do we not also recognize and look at attributes and traits : confidence stress levels , hardness , aggression , socialability , courage revovery ,  Do  not those words meand the same thing whether we talk ablout dogs or people ?  Cannot we see in children innate talents  and atrtibutes that we can increase and deecrease ? Do we not put expectations and responsibity on our children and from  that observe their maturity ?  Can we not see in a child's devlopment that they are ready , or are not ready for this or that ? Do we not set rules , do we not expect control /self control from people ? Do we not have hierrarchy and packs - clicks / families . So why is what I write about so amazing that some people need videos to see things when it is in every apsect of their life , right in front of your noses ?  So instead of your children , you are looking at a dog - what's the problem there ?  .. Do we not also experience " flight , fright , fight states " as dogs do ? Clasical Conditioning and Operant Conditioning - Learning fundamentals - are the different between a human and a dog ? I write to share experience and I have never ever written a word that was not so . Whatever I do , I tried to become one of the best doing it- that perhaps is where my flaw is. I tell my friend's children -if you want to be a race car drive- then hang around the world's best car racers. . If you want to be a lawyer , hang around the best lawyers, if you want to work dogs , then hang around the with the best dog working people that you can . And that is why I write - I learned for the Best , the Best on the World GS people - but realize - this did not happen over night - this took years !! I started getting knowledge at 16 years old .When  I state that  I learned  to evaluate a dog by seperating the environmental input away from the dog to evaluate the genetics, I mean exactly what I say , in truth . I am telling you , I have been taught this and I HAVE BEEN TESTED formally to do this . BTW , this  was not taught to any Tom, Dick or Harry , my mentor was guarded teaching some things to certain people about dogs . This  " Formal Method of Testing Temperament"  [ we can test informally too ] , this way of evaluating a dog , is easier done on a older dog than a puppy , simply because an 8 week pup or so , has not been influenced by the environment as a maturer dog has . That is why I wrote in nthe previous posts :' ask the dog ', ' give a pup a task 'because it will be true to you - the pup has not been corrupted. I wrote a number of times : What I know and experineced is because other people have taught me , one way or another . With my friends I have a few laughs - I told them : "one time I made a mistake with a dog when I was being taught , my mentor whipped me with his Sch whip " ! My point is that what I write to you on threads is not earth shattering or enlightening to those that are knowledgeable in the dog world. What I write is common knowledge to them . And also to many of the past members 'who have left' that posted on the PDB years ago ! I wish I did have a video to show some of you this .. But I am trying to reconcile and understand how many on the forum need to see things with their own eyes - I could understand this from someone that I work with , that has never worked a dog before . What I feel bad about is that when I write something that is not an opinion but others question it , that expresses to the other members reading exactly how much is known or not known , understood or not understood .

   So can someone help me figure out how I can post on the thread a picture - can you explain why    there  is no ' up load ' option when I hit the picture icon ? Sorry .. here I show my lack of knowlwedge and ignorance ..

this way of evaluating a dog , is easier done on a older dog than a puppy , simply because an 8 week pup or so , has not been influenced by the environment as a maturer dog has . That is why I wrote in nthe previous posts :' ask the dog ', ' give a pup a task 'because it will be true to you - the pup has not been corrupted. I wrote a number of times : What I know and experineced is because other people have taught me , one way or another .

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This is literally what I said. NOVEL ENVIRONMENTS show you a dogs true color. The initial reaction to a novel situation shows you everything you need to know. 

If a dog has major issues in a novel situation I dont need nor do I want to see the grips or how he is on the field. Thats it! Done! Move on!

There is nothing complicated about it. Its actually rather simple. There is also nothing complicated about testing it as long as you know how to test it. Nothing complicated about reading it either. 

Dogs are not complicated creatures. 

 

 

@Hundmutter: depends on how bad it is. Sometimes there are the right hokes out there. Homes that domt have a need to take the dog everywhere. A home in a more rural area where they dont encounter shiny floors etc. 

Now, if its really bad and a dog would live life in terror the most humane thing to do is to PTS. 

I have done behavioral euthanasia with quite a few rescues and would do so again. Sometimes its the most humane thig to do. But if a dog can have a quality life in a pet home and overall the temperament is right? Why not place them accordingly? 

As for me, I have sent dogs back to their breeders. What they do with them is up to them. I believe both dogs were placed in less demanding pet homes.