Stud dog question? Does he exist? - Page 6

Smiley, to some of your orginal post

1)ASL front and topline - 99.9% of ASL have a very steep upper arm, what you are considering a fault in the German dogs (legs set too far under) is actually a correctly angled upper arm.

2)Tightness of hocks of GWL- no wobble- go to shows and see the dogs. There will be literally 100's at the German sieger that do not "wobble". I attended 2 siegers in the U.S. this year as well as several club and regional level shows and just did not see it as an issue, especially among the VA and V rated dogs and very easy to avoid if it is there.

3)Angulation of GSL- I assume you mean rear, there is a whole range of angle in the GSL from almost straight to over done. lots of choices. Hocks turning in is often an issue though.

4)Head of GSL- easy to get

5)Movement of correct ASL/GSL without roach in motion or extreme gaiting- there are Euro s/l without roach but may take some effort to find.

6)Coat of GSL

7)Working ability, athleticism, and medium not heavy build of GWL-

Good luck on your quest. If experience means anything to you I recommend building your ideal German Shepherd from the inside out, I spent a lot of years building them from the outside and if there is a way to get the real GSD doing that, I did not discover it.

Smiley, have you ever galloped an Arabian on the track? Compared to a thoroughbred, they are like standing in the irons on a tire, kind of like riding a unicycle....their head is in your lap and and it feels like your about to scrape your feet on the track.lol. but there is the odd one out, that has heart and can carry a rider like a race horse.

     Each line is going to have well put together examples as well as duds. Even within a litter you will see a range of angulation, structure and pigment.  Not all VAs are over angulated. I know of one VA male here in the states that is incredibly agile and athletic and can produce that athleticism in his pups. In my opinion, dogs that have their upper arms set closer to a 90 degree angle in relation to the topline are more restricted in movement than a dog possessing a fromt as you will see in a German VA.

 

 

 

Ok, now I'm just lost. 

"Haters?" Where? What are we trying to prove now?? And who's arguing again?! I don't see a ton of discord here...more like admission about commonly accepted facts and flaws on both sides. 

And Smiley, I don't care who you breed your female to or when you make a decision and I wasn't bothering you about it. I was talking to Lies and merely agreeing with her suggestion of Boy. I've used him 3 times and she's also had personal experience with his progeny. Just a discussion. Nothing implied whatsoever! 

Personally, before I spent a lot of time researching minutiae about particular stud dogs, I'd make sure the stud owners were agreeable to breeding to the bitch in question and make my list of possibilities, concentrating on the ones who are open to it to avoid disappointment, if I was really really determined to breed a particular female. OTOH, research is always valuable, so even if you get a few doors shut in your face, you are still learning good info to move forward with. 

No hate here Ibrahim, I just find it annoying when people continue to promote SLs as being capable of work.  If you like showing your dogs all the power to you.  I have no issues with that, but lets not try to market them as something they are not.

I do not think my WLs ability in the show ring would ever be anything notable.  They will not win or do well in that venue, why delude myself?  I find it funny that people dont percieve that in the reverse.  Then you get the stories..my SL saved my live, my SL got pronounced at a trial, my SL is really tough even my helper said so!

This myth that you can produce dogs capable of work while breeding for conformation is always a laugh.  Then the justification:  "The standard says...blah blah", "the gait is essential to their work", "its because they are family dogs" etc etc. So then you get people nitpicking the way the dog trots, his pigment, and top line but in the end what do you have?  A crippled looking dog that cannot handle a courage test and needs a specially chosen helper to provide a lateral prey bite to.."test his courage".

Then you get the dogs that are capable of some work and are also pretty.  They are touted like the next coming of Christ yet in most cases when you look at them objectively they are nothing more then average.  So that leaves us with average studs taken to more often then not, average or below females.   That is the recipie for a cute litter of pets.  Then the new owners with puppy fever can come on facebook and forums like this and tell us about how wonderfult their new baby is.  "OMG he is sooo drivey, must be because he is a working dog!"...lol.

Luckily for most of these breeders the dellusion that is rarely tested by real life or a knowledgable decoy continues until the furbaby passes on.

 

A simple axiom to live by:  FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION.

Select the best workers within the breed that are robust and healthy.  The form will take care of itself ;).   If you want a dog that can "jump a ditch and apprehend a thief" your looking at the wrong lines.

 

 

 

Haz, unfortunately, I've heard 'form follows function' used to justify the worst excesses possible in conformation (and not just for the GSD, either!!)

Many people assume because it can trot around a ring and look pretty, its structure MUST be correct!

 

Whenever dog people get together, someone is sure to talk about "the breed standard" and how "form follows function."

It all sounds good, of course -- wonderful rhetorical chestnuts -- but it's pretty much nonsense.

Think about it. A working dachshund is a great little animal in the field and does the same work as a terrier, but it does not look like a terrier, does it?

By the same token, a Jack Russell Terrier does not look too much like a Border Terrier.

Smooth coats and rough do equally well in the field, as do coats of black, brown, white, or any combination in between. A folded ear is the same as a prick ear, a black nose the same as a liver-colored nose.

And is it any different for running dogs, molosser breeds, herding dogs, pointers, or retrievers? Does color of the coat matter? The "expression" in the eyes? No!

A working dog is defined by its work, not by its form. A retriever retrieves, a herding dog herds, a pointer points, a molosser guards, a pulling dog pulls.

"Form follows function?"

That's not even true in that sentence!

Form is about form. Function is about function. At best there is a relationship when it come to gross body shape or size, but that's not what they are judging at the dog shows is it? Instead, the most minute and insignificant detail is elevated to importance by preening pretenders and a handful of people doing contrived "work."

And what is the result?

It can be seen in breed after show-ring breed: transvestite terriers, counterfeit collies, and bogus bulldogs. The dogs may look the part, but they cannot do the job.

The Saint Bernard has been reduced to such dysplastic dysfunction that the dog cannot hope to rescue anything. In fact, it is an animal that needs to be rescued!

And let's not even start with the show-line German Shepherd, with hocks so sprung it looks like a dog sired by a frog.

Here is a simple truth: you cannot protect and preserve working dogs without working them.

You cannot breed quality retrievers or pointers when your own dogs have never heard a shotgun.

You cannot gauge the sheep-sense and holding power of a good Border Collie by tossing a Frisbee.

You cannot judge the true grit of a Jack Russell Terrier with a rubber ball. A one-hour cart pull around a farm does not a sled dog make.

People who think otherwise are kidding themselves. They are the reason every working dog breed dragged into the Kennel Club has been ruined there.

These people sincerely believe that if they breed a dog that looks the part, it can do the part. But this misguided belief underscores their ignorance. What makes working breeds special is not what is on their outside, but what is on their inside.

 

http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.ca/2009/08/counterfeit-collies-and-transvestite.html

 

Gee, isn't  that last bit EXACTLY what ILMD said above? 

do not look for the perfect dog. look for the dog[s] to improve your female, in the best possible manner.

I no longer get in these debates, but I feel some premises are inconsistent with facts. The German Shepherd was not made " for " trotting. The breed was created out of multiple herding dogs( of various structures) to be a versatile utility and herding dog. Second, it always amuses me that there are still real herding dogs and long time herding " breeders" who really know what the structure for efficient herding. There are still high level herding trials in Germany, what is the structure of the majority of these dogs....would they know more than a lay person like myself. Look at the structure of the majority of dogs working in real life( SAR, LE,Guide, Military, and Narcotics/explosives), what do these dogs look like, what do trainers and breeders say is good structure. The purpose of standard is for uniformity of type suitable to perform the function of a breed. The purpose is not for perfection in pictures, standing, or gaiting. 

I am purist, so I don't believe in lines, this is a specialization of a dog made for versatility. The more you specialize the less versatility you will have....now that is science and real! One poster made a comment that succinctly shows an understanding of the breed that I find encouraging....that comment was essentially......that you breed and maintain the breed from inside out and not from outside in. With that approach we will continue to breed dogs that have a wonderful earned legacy....otherwise we will continue towards breeding gorgeous calendar dogs.

Smiley, you concentrate on assessing the phenotype/genotype weaknesses of your female, and find a compensatory male that will hopefully improve these areas. It not about lines at all, or what you may like.

Gustav said - Smiley, you concentrate on assessing the phenotype/genotype weaknesses of your female, and find a compensatory male that will hopefully improve these areas. It not about lines at all, or what you may like. 

Best advice anyone could ever give you. I haven't read about anything you are looking to improve in your bitch.

Great posts, everyone! Excellent advice and, of course, that is what I plan on doing.

Blitzen...I posted a full run down on my bitch..her strengths and weaknesses, what I was trying to improve, and photos of her on another thread.

I didn't want to sidetrack this thread by being breeding specific towards my bitch. I was talking about a general philosophy that appeared to exist regarding separation of types.