some thoughts on inherited/genetic character vs. environmental trained - Page 3

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Rik

by Rik on 16 April 2020 - 19:04

cent, I can see where maybe I should/could have said "characteristics" or "character traits" in title.

anyway, I'll say it again in a different way, I think most that have replied on this subject (in different threads) are on the same road, maybe just at different speeds and mile markers.

I have found the different approaches/methods very interesting reading while stay at home.

stuck in the slow lane,
Rik

by ValK on 16 April 2020 - 20:04

Centurian
i do not agree with your view that character and genetically programmed base of the dog is separate entities.
dog's character development totally interconnected and depends on dog's genetic foundation.
to some degree genetically embedded behavior of dog can be tweaked but not totally wiped blank and rewritten to a new.

Koots

by Koots on 16 April 2020 - 21:04

This is the old argument of 'Nature or Nurture'.  Some responses to stimulus are inherited traits (genetic = nature) and some responses to stimulus are learned (learned behavior = nurture).    The dog on its own will respond to stimulus according to its genetics, but will learn from the experience and thereby can form a learned behavioural response the next time he/she is in the same situation.   The learned behaviour is why it's so critical for pups to be raised by a solid dam that has appropriate response to stimulus.    But once the pup is out on his/her own, their experiences will form associations to the results.    If the pup/dog experiences something totally new, then its response will be due to its genetic inheritance (nature) and not any learned behaviour (nurture).


Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 17 April 2020 - 08:04

And that initial response is what some of us are looking for when meeting a brandnew dog.

For example, my shop has a rather low ceiling, it's a rather dark place, going from tile to black rubber to tile. When I turn the lights off in the front and a dog initially comes through the front door while I sit in the back and challenge the dog (most people don't even realize I'm doing it), tells me a lot about the dog and if it's a breeding prospect, often times, everything I need to know in order to make a decision right there on the spot and whether or not I want to see more about the dog.

There are a few responses I can elaborate on:

- dog comes in incredibly insecure but not defensive and basically caves under the pressure. Even when i look up and away, it'll take a few minutes for the dog to bounce back

- dog comes in with initial insecure/suspicious head bops and bounces back within 10 secons

- dog comes in suspicious and goes into the defensive over the pressure I put on the dog. Even when I look up and away dog remains suspicious.

- dog comes in, head up, tail up, owns the place from the very beginning, doesn't perceive me as a threat at all

- dog comes in neutral, does not perceive me as a threat, isn't bothered by the environment

- dog comes in and sees me as an immediate threat and wants to basically eat me. Doesn't happen very often but happens more than enough.

And then I had three cases where a dog came in as an eight week old puppy, pressing itself against the wall baring it's teeth and already showing a fear aggressive response. It was straight up genetics. I've seen a few dogs like this out of the same breedings. No exposure and socialization in the world was able to fix these dogs. The dog in question was put to sleep at about 10 months old.


 


by Centurian on 17 April 2020 - 09:04

    Valk , There is a difference between two  aspects being altogether different and two entirely different aspects being linked/ associated . Also , because two different aspects may be associated with each  other,  that alone does not make two aspects the same- they are still two different aspects .

    Let me give an example of what I am discusssing : Courage - many people in posts have referenced , wanting a dog with "courage" . Courage is not a genetic trait [ it is an Attribute of Personality and Character ] . Courage is the ability to act in the face of adversity . Courage does not mean that a person or a dog is , not concerned , not worried ,  or not even afraid . It means that even though a dog or a person may experience these thoughts and emotions that dog/person  chooses to overcome them , by choosing  to cope with them by acting accordingly and confronting them . Let's understand "Courage " ... Where** does Courage originate** from . It originates and manifests from a Genetic Trait we deem as ' the dog's Stress Level " . Courage in and of itself is Not a Genetic trait . 'Courage' and 'The Stress Level' are two entirely different aspects to a dog or to a person . The stress level of a dog and it's courage  may go hand in hand - that is to say they are often interconnected , but they are not the same . Having the ' ability to endure stress ' allows a dog or a person to be Courageous , to have that type of personality / CHARACTER or personality ATTRIBUTE   COURAGE . Courage , [ the word 'Attribute' is a more precise word than trait......Confidence- I should have also written : Confidence it is is an Attribute , to better distinguish it from a Genetic Trait - that is what I meant by describing 'Confidence' as a Personality trait .] Again , Courage in and of itself is not a genetic trait as such . Courage emerges as a result of a dog's or a person's Functioning**  stress level . " Stress level ' and 'Courage' are two entirely different aspects yet they are linked because the more one can endure stress, the easier it is for one to express courage /to be courageous  in character .

  So I hope this adds clarification when  thinks about the dogs. One of the first apsects that I like to see when I get to know a dog is  : it's Strees level level , how it ovecomes adversity and how fast [ i.e Recovery Time ] . The  genetic triats more so than character taits/attributes  those  are what I am first interested in . And that means I have to be able to discern what is purely genetic ,  and what is character .  BTW , this is the gripe that we read about in many threads.  Many feel , and they have a point , that we should not have to do this to a dog , do that , in order to have the dog perform . We should not have to interact with a dog to increase it's confidence etc. , I leave that up for discussion but I will say  is : but I would say is that I woud think in terms of the dog's  'stress level ', it's'  hardness , it's aggression, in genetic purity  foremost . Character Attibutes are malleable , changeable , but this things are not . If they dont' have what is needed in those repsects, then confidence , courage , other character attributes / traits become inconsequential to me at that point. I am not thinking at that point what goes hand in hand and what will emerge for what bin the dog's behavior . Confidence and what not ,  is not the base , the stress level ,  etc etc etc , make up  the basis . 


by Nans gsd on 17 April 2020 - 14:04

OK Centurian-- how young of an age do you feel you can detect these attributes in a dog or a puppy?? Just curious as would like to feel I could apply these techniques to picking my next puppy out of a litter of X number of pups. Thx Nan

by ValK on 17 April 2020 - 17:04

Centurian
i didn't read much of books and didn't attend seminars because there wasn't ones. all my knowledge about dogs, at certain point of my life, did come through shared experience from more knowledgeable people and from own practical experience.
later in life, when literature about dogs had become accessible, i did try read and gave up. there are so much BS that one must think purpose of writers was to flood readers with senseless complexity of verbosity, make the book thicker and charge the price not for wisdom but rather per pounds of weight.

dogs aren't as sophisticated creatures. i been taught to simplify approach to dog's evaluation in black or white - fit or not, strong or weak.
if dog fit - take into work. if not - don't waste time and effort, simply write off and move to next.
everything starts from innate qualities, which can be observed and noted from the moment the pup opened eyes and begin consciously move.
if pup shows friendly affection to human, that pup will have very friendly and open to everyone character, through all life.
if pup discreet, slow in acceptance of person, that will form adult dog with aloof and suspicious character.
if pup, in most vulnerable period of own life, demonstrates high threshold for selfpreservation, that pup will grow up into dog with very brave, selfconfident and tend to independence character... and so on.
no one can wipe this genetically embedded predisposition and rewrite it to opposite ones to what been put into dog by nature.

by Centurian on 17 April 2020 - 21:04

Valk , I was simply trying to have  all* readers understand that there is a difference between character attributes and traits that are truly genetic in origin . Realize that not everyone reading the threads , the majority that is , ever post a comment- but they read to learn . Valk , .. yup .. I too threw out just about every dog book I had,  about dogs 30 years ago !!! There is nothing that teaches us best than experience. It is not to hard when experienced to figure out one can increase or destroy confidence , which by defintion is contrary to being an unchangeable  innate genetic trait. Sooner or later for better or worse someone will figure that out , the easy way or the hard way , when that person ruins their dog.

    Nans gsd ... I will write to you my subjective approach .. because this is much an art as it is science. But - I would like to say , that Valk's previous post is very very , intuitive  and something to contemplate when viewing a litter of puppies . So Nan you ask : " how young of an age do you feel you can detect these attributes " .

    I study the pups the minute they are born if I had bred them . Now I don't know if this is fact, but 30 years ago someone that was quite renowned in the GS world had stated that ' He prefers to see how the pups line up when they feed on the dam ". The inference was that the first pup was the strongest pup  in the litter. I do not know if that is true , but it may have merit . So from having come across that thinking , I looked and observed how the pups make ther way to their mother to feed. I look at the intensity of that motivation , how it navigates over or through the other puppies and how it interacts with the other puppies . I also takeinto account the pups don't open their eyes until 3 weeks of age , and the personality of the pups start to develop at approx. 4 weeks of age. So by week 5 or 6 I observe  the dynamics being expressed by the puppies with the make up of the sire and the dam in my mind. For if the sire and the dam do not have certain genetic graits then right from that point , then I know the pups will not becasue  the parents can only give what they have to give. That is a bramoeter tomhwat I may be thinking about. At age 6 or 7 weeks I have a good guestimation about the puppies and most definately by age 7-8 weeks.  We can get a gist how well a pup recovers from novel stimuli . How sensitive it is to touch , sound etc . How determined it is in certain tasks. We can observe how the other pupsin the litter  interact with that puppy and vice- a  versa . We can determine the  affinity it has for people.We can evaluate what  it is willing to do for a bite , how and when it bitre  . We can see if it is dominanat or more submissive , possessive or gives up items easily . Nan at a young age we can get impressions of a number of the  genetic traits and  start to detect what the make-up of the dog is

      Let me write : the genetic traits that I look for in even a 7-8 week pup . Again Recovery Time . How brave is the pup to investigate items that at first , startle it  and when startled how long does it take beffore it gets back to a normal state like nothing happend ? How fast  a dog gets stressed and in which situations  ? How  much  physically uncomfortableness can this pup endure , a lot or a little .  - in other words how 'hard' is this dog . High Hardness dogs means that as an adult  , it can take and handle  take a lot of physcal abuse/punishment as in a fight [protection] that is ,  without any concern . A puppy we do not get to carried away with  this  , bu we test the pup just enough to see his hardness , for a puppy that is. Aggression ... is the dog mild mannered , soft , moderate or very very highly aggressive in certain contexts. I had a 10 week pup -a friend of mine tried to do a ' dominance test '  withn him . He held the pup and the pup never gave up squirming in is arms . He let the pup down , the pup went 5 feet out from him and as he was still squatting on the ground , the pup turned around on a dime ran back and catapulted into his lap and tried to bite his face. So ...I said to my friend ' you thought this pup was dominant because he never settled and submitted to you . But you missed the most important feature. This pup had the audacity to turn around and  leapt into you to give you a piece of his mind . THAT , is what makes this pup what he is ! ". So this dog was  displaying attitude and confidence  , and attribute - but he gained even more connfidence with matutiry . He had enough experience to not know what  it even meant to be 'defeated by a human ' -hpw confident do you think this dog was as an adult at that point? . So I am saying ya , this dog had a bit of attitude , but he had even more by the time I got done with him . Attributes ... as opposed to genetic traits , can be increased !

        I can get insight to the pup having them at about 7.5 , 8 or 10 weeks of age .However , other attributes I see with the onset of maturity . For example , I would not have a pup or very young dog "defense" - I just wouldn't want the dog to exhbit courage until it was mentally , emotionally , and physically mature to . Again for 'courage ',  I would wait until a bit of maturity to determine if the dog has courage . So a word about the attributes I see as a puppy . If I observe a pup , you can see a pup display a sense of self , a sense of confidence, .. you can see the pup has " Attitude". I cannot put this into exact words , this is a sense having had experience with many dogs . I also believe that some attributes seemed to be paired with certain genetic traits. For example , many very very dominant , alpha dogs that I have seen , high in hardness , high in aggression and highly indpendent- they extrude much attitude and project a great degree of confidence. They are the ones most often that I have seen as being courageous , who endure the fight . They are often the ones that I have seen more often be the 'protestors'. The opposite seems to hold also . The dog with  low stress level ,   soft   , submissive , tend to have been the dogs that also lack courage and confidence. So , if we can get a handle on the dogs genetics as a pup we can at times get insight into some of it's attributes before and after maturity too .  Nans gs ,  this had been my personal experience in my life with the GS .


by ValK on 17 April 2020 - 23:04

It is not to hard when experienced to figure out one can increase or destroy confidence , which by defintion is contrary to being an unchangeable  innate genetic trait.

nope. dog may retreat in own confidence in regard of certain overwhelming factor but that doesn't mean dog totally lost innate ability to confidently deal with other stuff.
if human is the factor, dog would become untrustful/embittered to humans but will remains same confident in respect of other things - will keep own rank among own kind, will bravely confront danger and challenges, etc... as long as human isn't envolved.


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 18 April 2020 - 04:04

Hmmmm, so where humans treating dogs badly is the factor, explain why many dogs when rescued out of awful situations imposed on them by humans are not a bit resentful of all humans. True that many do try to hide from humans for a while, until they come to realise the bad situation has stopped (and depending on the individual dogs recovery abilities that will vary) but they do not all do so. Some come straight into rescues with their confidence and faith in (new) humans undiminished. Not necessarily subservient & submissive types.





 


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