some thoughts on inherited/genetic character vs. environmental trained - Page 6

BE Yes ! Novel environments bring out the true colors !! Thank you .. there is nothing complicated to it , that is what I have been trying to explain too !  

To the people reading :  I did write that there is a formal and  an informal  manner to evaluate a dog. The formal way , in short, is very precise and gives a lot of information as oppsed to  informaly evaluatingthe dog. The formal evaluation   is handy if one needs to do documentation for legal reasons ..If someone  was to do rehabilitation or behavior modification   that documentation would be  important. And I  think if anything should happen with  the owner and dog , a lawyer would not be interested if one did a so called  'informal evaluation'. The lawyer   would  probably  want  a documentation form describing    the dog's temperament  exactly and comprehennsively as well as an explanation whynthe dog  didm  what it did . This is beyond the scope of the thread, but evaluating a dog is more than just picking out a dog to see if it can do what it needs to do . 

Administator _ if I e mail you some pictures of my dogs , can you post them in this thread for me ?  

 

GK1
every breed was established and developed for certain purposes - hunt, herding, watch dogs, service dogs, companion "toy" dogs... perhaps there were good reasons for that.
GSD breed does stand out among other breeds due to somewhat wider range of applications and unfortunately this did become the biggest problem of the breed. in the chase to attain universal "jack of all trades" in each GS dog, breeding produces in mass the dogs, who don't fit for anything, beside ability after some training efforts to imitate usability. "versatility of breed" in mass perception were substituted by "versatility of dog". it's inachievable target, a myth. if a breeding goal is to produce a good guide dogs, only dogs, who exceptionally good fit for that purpose must be used in breeding and you cannot expect that dog to be also outstanding protector, and so in opposite, to expect from the dog, who truly bred to be protector, be at same time a great guide or PTSD dog.
that's my answer in regard of implication of discrimination of dogs over innate qualities.

as for "general age range for 'a bit of maturity' to determine presence of courage", there none of such.
previously in another topic you already asked similar and video example showing it. i posted two videos. one with 5 week old pup, named Ralph and second with approximately 9 week old pup Thusnelda vom Haus Iris. so i assume you haven't seen them or don't got what was going on with pups in these video :)

Centurian
option to post pictures directly into your post have been disabled by site owner. for that you need to use external service and post in your response the link to that picture.
you may use this one https://imgbb.com/, which not requeres registration.

BE Yes I'm sure that all happens as you describe; more times than not, probably, if we only heard about them, with people giving at least a nod to doing that in their posts. What disturbs me is so often here & elsewhere posters talk like they just wash a dog out if it does not fit for any reason, and leave that hanging. Maybe they are ALL exemplory in searching out and finding suitable homes; maybe some are not ?

Centurian I have to smile, to my mind 90% or more of humans ( and I'm prepared to include myself !) do not understand the minds of other humans, or at least not as much as we think we do, let alone get inside our dogs heads.

Was the 5 week old pup, ValK, reacting to vaccine or maybe upset stomach, or just cranky and tired similar to 6 month old human infant? Not your pup so you wouldn’t know. I’ll have to re-look for the haus Iris dog, I’ll guess not your dog either. :)

Yet according to ValK, somehow this 5 week old Ralf shows more promise for protection than the 11 week old pup belonging to duke1965, which ValK basically assessed as an “undetermined” in terms of protection quality and stress tolerance - even though duke1965 was actually testing the 11 week old rigorously considering it’s still a very young pup.

that’s a hard sell man..

Regarding in-achievable versatility in the GS. So one single GS litter cannot contain excellent prospects for S/R, LEK9, guide dog, farm dog, competitive sport dog? One dual purpose GS LEK9 cannot be be equally adept as an IGP dog, and affectionate family dog?

says who?

Yogi, of course there's no harm in asking for a video but a member has the right not to post any. So to keep asking is pointless. Not everyone has loads of videos to post myself included!!

 

- Above link - is a picture of my current GS. I got this dog in Europe from a very prominent person who I will not name . After decades of breeding , I was the first American he ever sold a dog to, and from my understanding the only one. Beforew thispicture was taken the impoertan GS people in Germany knew about this dpg at that moment. I had people attending with me and a moment after the picture they said to me " me Cent , do you know the kennels in Germany already know what your dog did ? Many will live a lifetime and never get   GSs of this caliber ..You don't get a dog as such this by being ignorant or a shi** head. And yes , this is my GS and not some picture that I got out there in the web somewhere . I write: I have achieved what I wanted to do in the dog world as well as what I set out to do in my life.

 

 This dog died five years ago . This is the dog I reference to doing a police demo at 1 year of age . He was a Fado Kathargo progeny [ and I had met Otto from Kathargo Kennels ] and on the other side of the pedigree he had foreparents from Korblebach Kennels. A very prominent SV Judge wanted this dog to present at the Bundessigerprufung to compete . This is the honest truth and yes , this is not a picture I copied somewhere. Below is a picture taken at night time with a decoy ... he also did French Ring Sport . Again , one does not get a dog of this caliber, not at all , without not knowing a dam thing about the GS or canines. Believe me the people in the know will laugh at you so hard , they will eat you up and spit you out , after they take your money of course. And I know , some of you are saying but we don't see him work . That is calling me a liar, and if I ever heard that spoken to my face I would certainly let you know that you made a mistake . What reason on a forum with different names , people , who I have no idea about , would I lie to them ?  https://ibb.co/DQ2mkYf

 

  This was another of my GSs , a Larus vom Batu son. So every single word that I have ever written on the PDB , is true. Sorry I have no videos. I tried the best I could to share thoughts and experiences .. If you don't agree with them - I am fine with that. I never ever ever took videos to show off my dogs , nor did I ever promote my dogs or myself . Neither do I use this site to make money or to make a name to promote , myself . I never ever used my dogs as commodities or to project my ego through them . Many of the high end people , the elite people they don't visit this site .. and one wonders why ? FYI some dogs I had were super stars , yet I never ever sold a dog because it did not suit my purpose - I nurtured that dog no more or less than any of the superstars I had. Like a person : we all stand before God the same -no one is any more important than another . Nor any better of worse. And some of you people ought to think that about dogs too . Because you have dog that can do this or that , that does not make your dog more important than anyone elses dog , any one elses dog on this forum site , nor does it make your dog more worthy . BTW there is more to dog than how hell  it bites. These dogs that are now being trained to scent out the corona virus , do you think those trainers give a hoot how that dog bites ?

Hund ..... IMOp dogs are so so so much  easier to understand than humans - they are true blue and fair. 

 Valk .. Thank you   for the link .

thanks cent. to be honest, It does help get an idea where one is coming from by seeing the dog.

a good ex. for me was a recent post describing a dogs trip through emergency room procedures with owner at hospital. don't remember the poster, but just from reading the experience, I formed a mental image in my mind. I guess influenced by all the service dogs in wal mart, etc.

actually seeing video posted, my image was nowhere close to doing justice to the actual dog and it would have been difficult for me to visualize through words a dog capable of going from such opposite extremes.

Rik, if that was on PDB, that may or may not have been me. I was recently at the hospital. Usually Athos accompanies me everywhere so it might have been about him but he's getting ready to retire and Champ is going to be his successor. Anyhow, let me share Champs situation because that was incredibly stressful. I had actual stroke symptoms. My left side went numb, My speech was slurred and I couldn't think straight. When I came into the emergency room they immediately rolled me into the back, Champ had to make himself very small a number of times, go in front of us and backwards, go back into the heel and then we got into the actual room. I've never been attended by so man people. He had to place while around 5 to 6 people were in the room, bringing machines in and out, stepping over him, prodding me, hooking me up to machines etc. Then he had to ride on the hospital bed to the CT room and place while they took a CT. From there he back to the room, then ride on the bed with me to the MRI room and back to the CT room (kid you not) where I was told I had to get someone to pick him up because they would transfer me to the stroke center, so a friend came and got him. It was an extreme situation for a dog that was just around two years of age and he handled it like a pro. He is environmentally a very strong dog, he's overall a very strong dog. I love his Character. On one hand he is this super chill dog that could easily live as a pet dog. On the other hand you have a dog that is literally on fire and would have zero issues with civil bites.

The first time Athos went into public access at a major mall we had to ride in an elevator with glass bottom and a whole bunch of people. I always tell people, show me a dog walk into a glas elevator packed with people. That is the ultimate test for a dog. Not only do they walk basically into nothing but there is serious social pressure on top of that and then the thing starts moving. If a dog can do that, then we are talking.

At another hospital visit I had to go into a tiny little closet type room with no space to get blood drawn. There was basically zero room for Athos but he still placed somehow while there were three nurses in that room and one had to step over him. It was extreme social and environmental pressure on the dog.

One time my husband and I went out for Dinner to a Japanese Steakhouse, it was packed and there were a whole bunch of kids running around playing with chopsticks. Some Kid came from behind poking Athos with chopsticks and they were crowding him. If you've ever been to Drum to the Japanese steakhouse when it's packed, there isn't a whole lot of space to maneuver.

Last year in fall we were invited to a local SPCA event. They asked us to give a training presentation. Tons of dogs and a very obnoxious kid running around. I was sitting in a chair while Champ was placing next to me when he got charged by a Doberman from one side and that obnoxious kid poked him with a stick from the other side.

There are so many situations I could talk about. Like riding on a full bus with Athos, taking countless trips on Uber or with Cabs, Walmart situations, hospital situations, mall situations, extreme social and environmental pressure.

When I'm out and about I am predominantly alone and on crutches or riding a scooter. I have enough to do navigating the environment and don't have time to film in those instances. The times I get to film are when I'm training at the shop or when I'm out with my husband. Yeah, it's a cleaner environment because most of the time I'm actually building a behavior or put finishing touches on the dog before I take it out in the environment. When I first take it out in the environment I start out in emptier spaces. Also, I'm not trying to be a jerk to customers and be all up in their space. Once a behavior is generalized it doesn't matter how many people are around. When I drop something, Athos doesn't need to be told to pick it up, he picks anything up I drop, no matter how many dogs or people are around. He's done it a gazillion times, the retrieve itself became rewarding because it's an interaction between him and me. Athos lives and breaths for me. Champ isn't quite there yet. He's a more possessive type of dog. When him and Athos are with me and I drop something, he'll pick it up but then wants to possess and walk away so Athos can't have it. He's still quite immature and I'm guessing he won't reach full maturity until he is about four years old. I'd like to think that a schooled eye can tell what kind of dogs these two are. This is a training video I put together about Champ.

BE - Athos & Champ sound like super-stable, old-style versatile GSD. What the breed needs more of, IMO.

Agree with Koots; and would add that you have to factor in the training element. Any person who, like BE, can train to get results like those described (never mind video 'evidence') is worth listening to, IMO - even if what they are doing is training for Assistance rather more than podium places. Some of that looks and sounds pretty refined to me.