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by riverlandwhites on 09 March 2013 - 00:03
Hello, I have friends in Germany who have written a beautiful book about our breed, 96 pages expert information and including 80 beautiful colour photographs, publishing data:
I am looking for expressions of interests who would want to buy this book if it was translated into English and published. The more genuine expressions of interests we get, the easier we will be able to find a publisher for the English version!
As I am a professional translator I will look after the translation myself, but we need someone who will finance the whole project. We will be grateful for any support!
-
Cadmos-Verlag GmbH
ISBN: 3861278758
29,90 Euro
I am looking for expressions of interests who would want to buy this book if it was translated into English and published. The more genuine expressions of interests we get, the easier we will be able to find a publisher for the English version!
As I am a professional translator I will look after the translation myself, but we need someone who will finance the whole project. We will be grateful for any support!
by Hundmutter on 11 May 2013 - 18:05
Wow ! 96 pages. LMAO
by Jenni78 on 11 May 2013 - 18:05
Kind of mean...
by Hundmutter on 12 May 2013 - 04:05
Jen, I could probably find some 100 pages to write on the
subject and the 'history' - but they wouldn't like any of it.
Yes, it was mean of me ... but I get very sour at the thought
that the true origins of white shepherds as a 'breed' are going to
be overlooked, the longer we go on in time.
subject and the 'history' - but they wouldn't like any of it.
Yes, it was mean of me ... but I get very sour at the thought
that the true origins of white shepherds as a 'breed' are going to
be overlooked, the longer we go on in time.
by Jenni78 on 12 May 2013 - 11:05
Ok, fair enough. I don't know anything about all that; it just seemed snarky to me and unwarranted since you didn't explain.
by whiteshepherds on 12 May 2013 - 11:05
Hundmutter their origin is pretty well known, I don't think anyone ever tries to deny that they share the same ancestry as the GSD. Why do you think it will be overlooked in the future and what difference would it make anyway?
by Hundmutter on 12 May 2013 - 15:05
Because of the way in which numbers expanded.
Breeders like Yvonne Daunton and the people
behind RinTinTin, and many others, knew about
the bloodlines, and at that point they may not have had
the benefits of DNA and elbow-scoring, or understanding
of how Epilepsy is partly hereditary, etc, but they
knew it existed, and they had hip schemes. They
also had the likes of Malcolm Willis, the Elliotts
and others pointing out that if you take 'faulty' dogs
(by the Standard) and breed them to other faulty
or fault-carrying dogs, without reference to what
other features of those dogs were correct or healthy
[or not], then you would do the breed no favours.
That dogs from a breed which was reluctant about
whites, and about long coats; and positively forbade
yellow eyes and pink noses and unpigmented nails,
should be used in breeding 'programmes' (hah !), just
to produce more pups which were "white", would end
up preserving a lot of additional faults and illnesses.
Particularly if almost every pedigree contained at least
one 2,3 mating on its five or six generations ...
But they mass produced them anyway, ignoring all that
information. And worse, putting the pups up as 'rare' to
encourage purchase by the ignorant. Sometimes at
inflated prices. Sometimes forgetting to explain how
they could not be entered in Conformation. Sometimes
not mentioning how inbred they mostly were.
Read other threds on this forum for some of the problems
purchasers are having even now the BBS / CWS/ WSS
is recognised by FCI. It may be developed away from its
ancestry and specimens may be (mainly) a clearer white
with black points but that isn't the whole story. Search the
PDB for Epilepsy threds.
This is not about them just having started as GSDs. Its
about what was done to 'develop' the 'new breed' - including
all the cons and short-cuts and indiscriminate pairings.
Towers built on sand.
Breeders like Yvonne Daunton and the people
behind RinTinTin, and many others, knew about
the bloodlines, and at that point they may not have had
the benefits of DNA and elbow-scoring, or understanding
of how Epilepsy is partly hereditary, etc, but they
knew it existed, and they had hip schemes. They
also had the likes of Malcolm Willis, the Elliotts
and others pointing out that if you take 'faulty' dogs
(by the Standard) and breed them to other faulty
or fault-carrying dogs, without reference to what
other features of those dogs were correct or healthy
[or not], then you would do the breed no favours.
That dogs from a breed which was reluctant about
whites, and about long coats; and positively forbade
yellow eyes and pink noses and unpigmented nails,
should be used in breeding 'programmes' (hah !), just
to produce more pups which were "white", would end
up preserving a lot of additional faults and illnesses.
Particularly if almost every pedigree contained at least
one 2,3 mating on its five or six generations ...
But they mass produced them anyway, ignoring all that
information. And worse, putting the pups up as 'rare' to
encourage purchase by the ignorant. Sometimes at
inflated prices. Sometimes forgetting to explain how
they could not be entered in Conformation. Sometimes
not mentioning how inbred they mostly were.
Read other threds on this forum for some of the problems
purchasers are having even now the BBS / CWS/ WSS
is recognised by FCI. It may be developed away from its
ancestry and specimens may be (mainly) a clearer white
with black points but that isn't the whole story. Search the
PDB for Epilepsy threds.
This is not about them just having started as GSDs. Its
about what was done to 'develop' the 'new breed' - including
all the cons and short-cuts and indiscriminate pairings.
Towers built on sand.
by whiteshepherds on 13 May 2013 - 12:05
Wow, that's a pretty broad brush you're painting with Hundmutter. Unless you have personal knowledge about the breeders who wrote the book and the dogs they produce, or unless you've read the book, you have no idea whether or not you're insulting good breeders or bad ones. You're lumping all WSS in the same catagory, throwing out the baby with the bath water as they say. Seems pretty shortsighted.
by Hundmutter on 13 May 2013 - 13:05
I have just been around a long time, remember some people,
and done some research.
I am not pointing at any few individuals in particular, but the huge
general ethos in the production of whites over the decades.
Yes there are and have previously been breeders who themselves
did not do the things I mentioned, but if you look at the pedigrees
of their stock, they have still historically used and reused stud dogs
and purchased bitches from the people who WERE doing them, or
have current generations which go back to some of them, so their
lines are not clear of the dogs used over and again to keep the
colour coming in abnormal numbers. It isn't about the ethics
of the individuals (well, it is, but that's almost a separate issue),
it is the 'creation' of a so-called separate breed on a very dodgy
basis.
If you put a breed together from scratch, it tends to be about
fulfilling a purpose which no existing breed already fills. To
create any breed, yes you have to use inbreeding and trial
matings and all that, but you have to be prepared to cull
heavily, and to avoid perpetuating known diseases and faults. In the
case of white shepherds those principles were virtually all set aside,
in the rush to breed numbers for sales, of a naturally occurring colour
form. So we ended up with masses of litters being produced which
went straight to the open pet market. The same is true to a large extent
of other non-Standard colours, Blue & Liver +. Most of these dogs where
you can trace the pedigrees back far enough, have lines which relate
them all to each other (far more than the common ancestry behind
ordinary GSD pedigrees), and usually multiple lines to the same
dogs who are implicated in epilepsy. (Even where the type of epilepsy
was not known, they would have been better not bred from; but they
were used, and often). Whatever country you look at pedigrees from
you can eventually find these dogs somewhere behind the modern
ones. And many were fathers mated to daughters, half-sibling matings,
etc, of course. Very very often of dogs who had not had their hips done,
or won any kind of working or show competition, or done any other job
in particular (when all around the rest of the breed, sables and B&Gs,
were mostly doing just that before they were bred from, at least by people
other than the BYBers). Some people involved had been breeders who had
produced, tested and qualified good normal-coloured dogs - but once they
realised how much $£$£ could be made, they didn't try to do any of those
things with their white stock.
If you want more specific examples , 1] read carefully the Epilepsy and
Liver GSDs threds from last year; 2 ] Bring up a few White Shepherds
and white GSDs pedigrees on this database, go back to the furthest
generations which still name the dogs used, contrast and compare. I
can't help you with ALL my sources of info e.g. UK litter Registration Records
going back yonks, but honestly, the picture DOES emerge.
I very much doubt the book will mention much, if any, of this part of the history.
And it is beginning to get far away in time - doesn't mean the genes aren't
still being recycled.
and done some research.
I am not pointing at any few individuals in particular, but the huge
general ethos in the production of whites over the decades.
Yes there are and have previously been breeders who themselves
did not do the things I mentioned, but if you look at the pedigrees
of their stock, they have still historically used and reused stud dogs
and purchased bitches from the people who WERE doing them, or
have current generations which go back to some of them, so their
lines are not clear of the dogs used over and again to keep the
colour coming in abnormal numbers. It isn't about the ethics
of the individuals (well, it is, but that's almost a separate issue),
it is the 'creation' of a so-called separate breed on a very dodgy
basis.
If you put a breed together from scratch, it tends to be about
fulfilling a purpose which no existing breed already fills. To
create any breed, yes you have to use inbreeding and trial
matings and all that, but you have to be prepared to cull
heavily, and to avoid perpetuating known diseases and faults. In the
case of white shepherds those principles were virtually all set aside,
in the rush to breed numbers for sales, of a naturally occurring colour
form. So we ended up with masses of litters being produced which
went straight to the open pet market. The same is true to a large extent
of other non-Standard colours, Blue & Liver +. Most of these dogs where
you can trace the pedigrees back far enough, have lines which relate
them all to each other (far more than the common ancestry behind
ordinary GSD pedigrees), and usually multiple lines to the same
dogs who are implicated in epilepsy. (Even where the type of epilepsy
was not known, they would have been better not bred from; but they
were used, and often). Whatever country you look at pedigrees from
you can eventually find these dogs somewhere behind the modern
ones. And many were fathers mated to daughters, half-sibling matings,
etc, of course. Very very often of dogs who had not had their hips done,
or won any kind of working or show competition, or done any other job
in particular (when all around the rest of the breed, sables and B&Gs,
were mostly doing just that before they were bred from, at least by people
other than the BYBers). Some people involved had been breeders who had
produced, tested and qualified good normal-coloured dogs - but once they
realised how much $£$£ could be made, they didn't try to do any of those
things with their white stock.
If you want more specific examples , 1] read carefully the Epilepsy and
Liver GSDs threds from last year; 2 ] Bring up a few White Shepherds
and white GSDs pedigrees on this database, go back to the furthest
generations which still name the dogs used, contrast and compare. I
can't help you with ALL my sources of info e.g. UK litter Registration Records
going back yonks, but honestly, the picture DOES emerge.
I very much doubt the book will mention much, if any, of this part of the history.
And it is beginning to get far away in time - doesn't mean the genes aren't
still being recycled.
by whiteshepherds on 16 May 2013 - 22:05
Thanks Hundmutter - our views about the WSS are obviously very different and I don't doubt that there were and are some bad breeders producing them, but all breeds suffer at the hands of idiots. I honestly don't believe the US and Canadian breeders have had a problem with epilepsy in their White Shepherd bloodlines like it sounds you have in the UK, but I'm going to look into it further and ask about it on the WSGP list. With the WSS now being imported and bred to the Am/Can White Shepherds breeders need to be really careful about the dogs they're importing.
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