Question BBS - Page 2

Australian Shepherds come from California. Nothing new under the sun.

There were so few GSDs in Switzerland in comparison with the rest of Europe that it is extremely unlikely anybody Swiss bred ANY of the first "different" white dogs that the BSS got started with. Pedigree records show a preponderance of UK and USA registered lines of white GSDs being bred for colour (rather than health & conformation) for many years, and these dogs are behind almost all BSS alive today. So where is the Swiss connection again ? Could it be someone had a whizz-bang idea for a new breed description and that's the limit of it ? Oh yeah.

Oh and yes, all the foundation dogs when the GSD was created came from parts of Germany; not sure where else you think they were brought in from, as they were all TYPES of herding dogs native to their areas of Thurringia, Frankonia, Wurttemberg etc - as recorded by Von Stephanitz. What have you got, whiteshepherd ?

None of the "White Shepherds" that became the foundation dogs of the "Berger Blanc Suisse" were bred/born in Switzerland, they were imports from USA/Canada ( Lobo, AKC 727466 ). Out of this reason in the beginning they were called "American/Canadian Shepherds", but neither the USA nor Canada is member of FCI, and only members are able to apply for acknowlegement of a breed within FCI. So they had to change the name...

Switzerland makes sense, because Agatha Burch ( Lobo ) was the first European who successfully bred these dogs. In 2011 the breed finally was acknowledged ( FCI 347 ).

In the meantime a lot of clubs, a lot of registries, no overview of any "bloodlines" possible...

It´s not allowed to breed "White American/Canadian Shepherds" to "Berger Blanc Suisse", because within USA and Canada they are registered as "German Shepherd Dogs", an absolut no-go for Europe and FCI.

For Whiteshpherds: The German Shepherd Dog was "created" out of traditional German herding dogs only, all foundation dogs came from Germany...

Hund, I think you're being deliberately obtuse or just go a little crazy every time the BBS are mentioned.... The Swiss started a stud book, eventually got the breed into the FCI on a provisional and then permanent basis. They did the work, they wrote the standard, they named the breed. It's not like they did something wrong or deceptive. They give credit to the American and Canadian dogs in their standard.

I asked about the GSD because I didn't know. I knew dogs were used from the different regions of Germany but not to the total exclusion of dogs from other nearby countries.

No idea what you meant by what do I have? Does a headache count? ;)

Susie I know the FCI states that GSD's are no longer allowed into the BBS breed but it's still being done in certain FCI countries. I can tell you with absolute certainty that the AKC GSD or pups from AKC GSD/FCI BBS breeding are still being entered in some FCI registries as a BBS. When not entered as a full BBS they are entered in the appendix if the country uses one, or used as breeding stock until 3 gen BBS can be established in the pedigree. AKC GSD's from the US have been brought to Italy, been evaluated by an FCI judge and given FCI papers. I could on, but you get the point.


The FCI BBS stud book was closed too soon, it's pretty obvious by the number of UKC/AKC whites going over to Europe and the number of BBS coming into the US that are being bred. If I remember right the FCI standing orders only allow 10 years for a breed to stay on provisional basis, maybe that's why it was closed when it was?

"The FCI BBS stud book was closed too soon,..." - May be true, but doesn´t help.
It´s a big mess, and as long as AKC/CKC still continues to register white dogs as "German Shepherd Dogs" this won´t change. Only a few people are that enthusiatic, that they are willing to breed "register" dogs for several generations over here ( for potential buyers that´s not much better than buying dogs without pedigrees ).
Someone on your side of the pond has to fight for these dogs, they are an own breed, and they need to become acknowledged as an own breed.
As soon as this problem is resolved, there will be the chance to broaden the genepool internationally, but right now...

Forgot to mention this website, although written in German only, it´s very informative

http://www.weisseschaeferhunde-werntal.de/html/-zuchtaufbau.html

I am neither obtuse nor crazy, I just prefer that people are honest about the origins of the BBS.
As Susie says, it is a big mess, IMO made more so by the pretence that this is some sort of carefully choreographed new Breed that was created for some 'good' purpose and doesn't mostly depend on humans wanting initially simply to exploit a 'fault' in an existing breed for what they could make out of its novelty value. To the detriment of many, many dogs' health along the way.

I find it such a shame that this forum for the white shepherd has not been used for so long. This database is an invaluable tool thank you but regarding the forum, as soon as someone asks a question or initiates a conversation about the Berger Blanc Suisse/White Swiss Shepherd out comes the anti white/BBS patronising comments made by certain people who think they know it all.

There is enough contraversy going on currently in the GSD show world why try to create more. The BBS are gaining popularity which can clearly be seen by this year's entries at Belgium Euro Dog Show. BBS - 92 entries in total
GSD'S - 25 in total and 1/2 of them are long coats.

Hund- You and others had your GSD standard handed to you on a silver platter. You had the experience and knowledge of those who came before you. Hundreds of books for reference, breeders who passed their knowledge down. Registries, show promoters, an established breed survey, Schutzhund clubs etc. etc. You didn't do the hard work, other people did and all those people asked, starting with the breed founder, was that you keep his breed a working dog.... but what did people do? Split the breed. Working and show lines.

People walked into a ready made breed, one of the best in the world, and couldn't leave well enough alone. Don't talk to me about exploiting dogs...the GSD has been bred and exploited for decades by people who want the legend regardless of whether or not the dogs they're producing can live up to it.

Unless you've been part of journey with the whites you can't begin to guess the motives behind it or the work that has gone into it. You're on the outside looking in. The responsiblity of writing a breed standard, getting the dogs to breed true to type, doing test litters, eliminating the ones that were too timid, bad conformation, had genetic problems, collecting data, researching, putting on shows, dealing with multiple registries, educating the public etc. are all part of being involved in establishing a new breed. It's hard work and people have stuck with it for decades against all odds. You call them breeders producing novelty dogs, I call them breeders who saw some of the best qualities the GSD had to offer and made sure those dogs didn't become extinct.

I have the breed books for data for the white GSD's dating back to the early 60's as do a lot of people. Thousands of dogs. Pictures, pedigrees, health reports, shows and trials attended with results, notes for height, eye color, nose, lips, coat, temperament reports, progeny reports, etc. etc. etc. There's a database in Canada with over 55,000 whites in it. There are other databases. Contrary to what you may believe breeders have paid attention to the traits of these dogs for over 50 years. Are there some bad breeders, sure, all breeds have them, it can't be avoided.

Like it or not the White Shepherd/Berger Blanc Suisse are here to stay. You can bad mouth the breeders all you want but the fact is this breed is solid and established globally. It's supported by thousands of dog owners and breeders around the world for a very good reason. Don't like it? Don't buy one.