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by Smiley on 06 November 2015 - 20:11
Darlene,
Please stick around....you are clearly knowledgeable about genetics and seem quite reputable. Obviously, you don't like to see poor specimens bred and we would all agree with you.
I wish people would stop focusing on the outside color of the dog and start focusing on the inside. A german shepherd is not defined by its color but by its character, working ability, and type. I have seen breeders breed black and red dogs (shockingly with titles) who should never have been bred based on their character or genetics.
I would rather have a great german shepherd that is any gosh damn color than a black or black and red that has a poor temperament, health, or type.
Please. Stop. I have seen some pretty freaking great white german shepherds.
Everyone should worry about producing german shepherds with type, character, good health, and working ability as the rest is gravy.
A good german shepherd is a good german shepherd regardless of color. To those that argue it's not breed standard...than take out all the oversized dogs from the SV breeding program. An oversized dog is a much greater health risk than a dog of a different color.
Sarah
by yogidog on 06 November 2015 - 20:11
by Living Fence on 06 November 2015 - 20:11
Quote Susie:
"To Living fence: ....
We ( Germany ) are not able to sell on "limited registrations" - every dog/puppy bred according to the rules gets its pedigree...
but we are forced to show and title our dogs later on ( in that case: a blue/liver dog, although with pedigrees, is not allowed for breeding...) =
Breed selection"
Das weiß ich sehr gut (In English: I know that very well)
The OP didn't ask for everyone's opinions on colors outside the breed standard. I suggest that people who want to discuss breeding for color, within (black/red comes to mind) or outside (blue etc) the breed standard, start a new thread.
by Living Fence on 06 November 2015 - 21:11
Take 2 on the question whether the pedigrees of the 'off' colored dogs might be fake:
I checked the registrations and dual registrations for the dam of the liver male and the dam of the blue female.
The liver colored male's dam, Puma de Pozalmuro, is registered in Spain. Use the Spanish google and you find the kennel, a WL kennel: http://www.pozalmuro.com/principal.htm The liver dog entered as her son has the same kennel name in the PDB entry. This would be the case if he is born, named, and registered as a puppy in Spain and then exported to the USA where he is registered with the AKC. He would have dual registration, Spanish (LOE) and US (AKC).
The sire of the liver colored male is entered as vom Salztalblick. His only registration seems to be with the SV (SZ).
The blue colored female's dam, Tilda vom Holtkämper Tor, is dual registered with the SV (SZ) and with the Portuguese kennel club (LOP). "Da Casa do Bento" would then be a Portuguese kennel. Indeed, use the Portuguese Google and you find it, a SL kennel: http://www.casadobento.com/defaultEN.htm The blue female was then born, named, and registered as a pup in Portugal, sold to the US, and might have been registered with the AKC. The US buyer may have requested the name "Blue Pretty Woman". BUT I did not find an entry for her in the AKC database.
The sire of the blue female is entered as a SL male registered in Switzerland (SHSB) and the China (CSZ). I had found the CSZ registration a while ago already. In that scenario, Holtkämper Tor had sold the female to Portugal and had nothing to do with the litter that had a blue pup.
So neither Salztalblick nor Holtkämper or would have control over the litter (unless the stud agreement for the Salztalblick sire had some kind of clause about off colored pups having to be sold without registration papers).
I added the Spanish and Portuguese registration numbers to their entries on PDB.
I don't know whether it happened as I analyzed above but it is both possible and plausible. Hope this helps.
LF (pedigree researcher)
by susie on 06 November 2015 - 22:11
" So neither Salztalblick nor Holtkämper or would have control over the litter (unless the stud agreement for the Salztalblick sire had some kind of clause about off colored pups having to be sold without registration papers)."
That´s what I tried to say...
Try to find "Pretty woman" in the AKC database, not BLUE pretty woman, it´s a "P" litter.
by Living Fence on 06 November 2015 - 22:11
If you found an entry in a registry database, Susie, please share it.
by susie on 06 November 2015 - 23:11
by Jenni78 on 07 November 2015 - 02:11
I would never try to produce them but I am not ashamed of the fact that I have accidentally produced them once.
That pedigree looks very believable for those colors, FWIW. Whether he has the right to breed them, well, that's another story, but I believe both sides carry for those colors. I've seen quite a bit off of Pike, as others have mentioned.
by Sunsilver on 07 November 2015 - 04:11
BTW, I meant to include the link to Darlene's site in my previous post. There is some VERY interesting stuff re. the genetics, and the different ways the colours manifest themselves: http://www.bluedogs.8m.com/
What's the first thing you read on the site?
THIS IS AN EDUCATIONAL SITE
I understand the viewpoints of those who don't like what she's doing. It is not something I'd do myself. However, I respect her right to do as she wishes, and I respect the way she's going about it!
by susie on 08 November 2015 - 17:11
Right now there is an ad online offering a liver puppy with FULL AKC REGISTRATION ( sire : Figo )
This is out of the AKC standard for German Shepherd dogs:
Color:
The German Shepherd Dog varies in color, and most colors are permissible. Strong rich
colors are preferred. Pale, washed out colors and blues or livers are serious faults
A white dog must be disqualified.
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