Unusual use of an e-collar? - Page 11

"Anyone that still uses Koehler and condemns the use of low level modern remote trainers. Isn't a person that anyone can have an intelligent training discussion with :-("

Clearly, it's your reading comprehension that suffers, Dobermannman.

I 'still' use Koehler if that's what is called for, and I've never condemned 'the use of low level modern remote trainers'.  It's the mis-use of such devices I've condemned, and I don't see that changing when it comes to the devices that presently exist on the market.  Let me know when a manufacturer comes out with such tools that are meant for use on the loin, groin, tail, tongue, or where ever else on the dog's body you'd like to be able to touch the dog with a 'light electrical stim', or begins including instructions on how to use their current or past products in such a fashion in the user manuals.

Koehler methods are never called for with all the alternatives available today.
You label the use of a remote trainer anywhere but around the neck as "abusive".
That would be news to Bart Bellon 2 x NVBK Champion and one of the best known, most respected and admired trainers in the world

Thomas Barriano

Never mind.

Look,  Haz, Thomas and Hired dog,  I can count :  didn't grow up in
a doggy family, only started to get small animal experience
thanks to my own efforts when I turned 11 and started to walk
dogs and pet sit.  It was a couple of years until I got some GSDs 'under
my belt', and a while longer before I took an interest in anything
but basic pet obedience training.

But take an interest in it I eventually did.  I have long ago read Most, and
Koehler  (even still got books by them around someplace);  I have
also read a good many other writers on canine matters.  Some were
co-temperaneous, others later - but not much later !  Many writers, while
not being Training Specialists, cover training techniques in their wider
remit when talking about dog care and raising, especially of working
breeds.  Whilst it is true that both Koehler and Most did advocate the
occasional corporal punishment of dogs who failed to learn certain actions,  
neither of them 'majored' on beating dogs with any regularity;  both ALSO
said at various points about using 'encouraging' methods and rewards,
and good treatment generally on their dogs ...  For someone who is a
specialist look at John Cree, for just one example.  I sometimes think people
remember the bits of what they read which they most identify or agree with,
and disregard anything else said in the same volume.

Besides which, belief in punitive methods (to whatever degree) does
not preclude someone from learning something better - or we would
all still be stuck in the Stone Age, & about a lot more things than dog
training.

Thank you Hexe for finding the instructions you quoted - no, I can't see
that they tell you anywhere how to use it as a 'belt' either !  Perhaps
Thomas can try again, to find us some precise instructions ?

I will echo Blitzen...Never mind!

Hundmutter      
I'm not sure what kind of "precise instructions" you're looking for?

You asked about preventing the receiver from moving from the flank to the genitals. I told you what I use to keep my collars in place.
If you are looking for a manufacturer instruction on e-collar placement on locations other then around the neck? You're probably not going to find it. That doesn't mean innovative trainers can't improvise if it improves how the dog learns. Of course those locked into the SHOCK part and not the light stimulation (direction)part aren't going to understand :-(

Thomas Barriano
 

Haz said:

Thus your ignorance is displayed for all to see. Instead of saying to yourself: Blitzen, you have no idea why the E Collar is used in this context and likely have no idea how to properly use an E Collar at all here is a chance to expand my knowledge. Instead you started spouting off about something about which you knew nothing and continued the spread of misinformation thus contributing nothing of note to the discussion.
I cant begin to explain to you why a trainer would use two e collars as you clearly dont understand the basic principles behind the use of an E Collar so whats the point?
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My ignorance is displayed for all to see? You don't know me and you know nothing about my experience in the dog world or what I do or do not think or what I know or don't know  All you do know is that I do not agree with YOU so that makes me ignorant?  What does that make YOU?

 

Right - I ' probably won't find it ' ;  maybe because the
folk who invent / sell such things didn't have the wit to
think of less usual ways they could be used ?  Or would
that be because they were not intending them to be used
in unusual positions ?  So the manufacturers, by that
logic, don't know much about their use in training situations
either, then ?  And are entirely happy to leave it up to the
inventiveness of some good ol' boy who is looking to get an
edge over the competition, by some ' innovation'.  Being
able to think something up does not necessarily make it
effective, clever or the right thing to do.  Ask Torque Marda.

What I was looking for, to answer my original question,  was
if someone was actually prepared to say something like:
"Yes I've done this;  this is what it was effective for;  it never
moved around on the dog's body, so no I believe there is no
risk of that happening, and it therefore cannot stim the dog
on his tender bits.  I use an elasticated system, it doesn't
move."
Or not, as the case may be.

But we don't get that response, do we ?  Instead we get the
usual blustering shite about how no-one understands what
you guys do unless they too do the same;  how the question
is stupid nonsense;  how I must be stupid & ignorant  - and
have another agenda - for even asking the question.  With 
just bits of the straight answer thrown in there too.  Not very
impressive;  smells like desparate self-justification.

Ecollars are a mixed blessing...in the right hands, of a responsible, skilled and dog smart person the device is unsurpassed in it's effectiveness and reliability for desired results. But, in the hands of a cruel, sadistic prick who is frustrated by their own inept capability to succeed at anything, or in the hands of ignoramuses...the ecollar is a torture device. Interesting that all dog venues prohibit the ecollar and prong (and even the fur saver at some) in the ring, field or in some cases on the premises while the 'choke chain' and flat collar are permitted. I have seen dogs with flat collar imbedded in the neck, and choker used to cause a dog to black out. One recurring description I notice used by some proponents here is "low level" stimulation. For some dogs with high prey, high pain threshold that are engaging in life threatening activities, such as chasing deer or horses or any other live stock, low level is like leaving the gate open to them. Low level reference seems to be pc, but not practical in some cases. When a dog is trained and only needs a reminder or reenforcement of a command, then low level is appropriate. Not every one should have their hands on a transmitter, just like not every one should own a dog. JMO.

Joanro, EXACTLY right!

I know in the right hands, they can be a good tool. It's the potential for abuse that bothers me.In the wrong hands, they can be far more harmful than a choker or prong collar.

(OT thoughts: Wonders why a fur saver is banned in trials...are they REALLY any different from a choke chain?)