SS, I never heard of a dog being killed with an e collar, but I've heard of a dog being killed with choker and sharpened prong.
Yes, fur saver is different than choke chain....the fur saver is not intended to be used to tighten up around dog's neck as is choker. There is little to no release when SLack is put in the leash with FS. Therefore, there is no 'reward' by releasing the tightened collar if FS is used in live ring. That's my experience, at least.

So as to get a better understanding on why someone would use this metod of training, I did a little bit of "rainy day research".
And I got to say I haved learned more about this method on sport dog forums, mostly retreivers.
This is the way hunters teach the "whoa" to their dogs in the field.
I looked up e-collars on the flank of sport dogs.I habe just spent the afternoon learning many different techniques.
BUT, I did come away with an understanding of it's use.

(OT thoughts: Wonders why a fur saver is banned in trials...are they REALLY any different from a choke chain?)

Fur savers are mandatory at IPO trials

Hundmutter    WTF are you blathering on about?  The HAWX stretch collar has two small springs that stretch and contract as the dog neck (or waist) contracts and expands. That is why/how the receivers stay in place. Did you even look at the HAWX webpage I referenced? . As far as your "good old boys not using the e-collars as the manufacturers intended" nonsense. One of the first (maybe the first?) person to use multiple low level e-collars for directional purposes was Bart Bellon 2x Belgian Ring (NVBK) Champion and world famous lecturer and seminar giver. His seminars are sponsored by e-collar manufacturers (Innotech a few years ago and I believe Martin Systems currently) Please do a little research (google Bart Bellon) before you post another reply.

Thomas Barriano

There are many products out there who are manufactured one way, and then the end user comes up with other ways to use it or improve on it, ideas which manufacturers then implement.

Right - I ' probably won't find it ' ;  maybe because the
folk who invent / sell such things didn't have the wit to
think of less usual ways they could be used ?  Or would
that be because they were not intending them to be used
in unusual positions ?  So the manufacturers, by that
logic, don't know much about their use in training situations
either, then ?  And are entirely happy to leave it up to the
inventiveness of some good ol' boy who is looking to get an
edge over the competition, by some ' innovation'.

The manufacturers originally didn't put out collars with multiple receivers on them either.   But after having users contact them on a regular basis asking how to program 2 receivers to one hand unit, they started producing them that way.   Same for the elastic/stretchable collar options, end users came up with that idea first and then the manufacturers created it as an option.

In the case of the use on various locations, there isn't anything the manufacturers need to do for someone who wants to use the collars this way.  You can purchase a collar from the manufacturer and use it on various locations without any modifications.  Considering many of the manufacturers actively use their own product, and there are e-collar brands that were designed by people who are dog trainers (they had one of the main brands modify the collar to their specs and then market it with their own label) the manufacturers are well aware of the various ways the collars are being used.

Malndobe, thank you very much for your civilised reply
and the explanation of the circumstances surrounding
the development of these collars.  I would have thought
the story went something like that - but I am still puzzled
as to why the current web pages / instruction sheets
accompanying the products still do not mention any use
or positioning except that of the neck  ?  If this use is
so well established ?


[See, boys, it isn't all that difficult to be polite on an internet
forum, is it !]

          I am not saying if this is right, or wrong, but in all fairness to the kennel whose pic is being discussed, I figured I would share what I found out.
       Others do use this method for "whatever" they are training...
 

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Putting an e collar around the flanks?

by» Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:20 am

This method seems to be in vogue lately, what are the advantages of attaching a collar this way?
       

Re: Putting an e collar around the flanks?

by » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:38 am

Each dog is different. For us it helped remove the use of ecorrection (for bird work) from the neck and placed it around the flank. E-colllar was originally used for recall on the neck, so use for bird work was confusing to the dog

 

Re: Putting an e collar around the flanks?

by » Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 am

 wrote:This method seems to be in vogue lately, what are the advantages of attaching a collar this way?

Dogs have a natural tendency to stop and stand still when they feel pressure (or e-collar stim) on their flank. Using stim on the flank will stop most dogs in their tracks, so it's a great way to enforce whoa on a really hard headed dog that insists on jumping in to help flush the bird. This works especially well on dogs that were yard trained on "whoa" with a half-hitch rope around their waist. By the time they get to the e-collar around the flank, they already know what that correction means.

In some cases (or maybe just with some dogs), people have stated that e-collar stim on the neck while the dog is pointing can cause dogs to become "blinkers". I don't know how true this is, as I've never used neck stim on a dog that is pointing. Given today's e-collars are capable of very low levels of stim, this may not be true any more. But I see no need to stim on the neck in this situation anyway, as the collar around the flank works well and does not cause "blinking" in my experience. blue04
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Re: Putting an e collar around the flanks?

by  » Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:34 am

Because it more duplicates the check cord around the flank for teaching whoa. Dogs seem to get the message much quicker than other methods. They learn in a couple of tries rather than a couple of weeks.

Bird Dogs Afield host Paul Fuller is the gun dog columnist for Northwoods Sporting Journal.  The Journal has granted permission to re-print Paul’s articles. Thank you Northwoods Sporting Journal.

E-Collar Introduction  Part 2

    
In last month’s column, we learned that the modern e-collar is a very effective training tool.  We learned that it must be introduced in the yard and not in the field.  We also learned that e-collar stimulation is used for non-compliance to a command already learned and understood by the dog.  We taught how to use the e-collar with a non-field command such as “kennel”.
    
This month, let’s add two additional commands to the training process; they’re the two most important commands for the field.  First, we’ll teach the “here” command.  Start with a 20’ check cord.  Give the command “here” and pull the dog to you.  Then use positive reinforcement and reward with a treat.  As we learned last month, dogs should be taught in sets of three or seven.  Do this exercise seven times twice a day.  Continue this exercise until the dog fully understands the association between the command and the required action.  We now introduce the e-collar.  As with the “kennel” command exercise, we stimulate, command, stop stimulation when command is obeyed and then treat.  We then flip the process by commanding, stimulating and then turning-off the stimulation as soon as the dog gets to you.  By flipping the process, we’ve completed the association.
    
Now let’s teach the “whoa” command.  I highly recommend a training table for teaching this command.  Build a table 2’ wide by 12’ long and, with legs, elevate to 2 ½’.  Put ramps at both ends.  The training table will save your back and allow you to more quickly demonstrate to the dog what you what him to do.  Keeping the dog on your left, lead him up the ramp, across the table and then down the opposite ramp.  Do this two times.  On the third trip, about half way down the table, command “whoa”.  Don’t yell the command…just use a normal voice.  Simultaneous to giving the command, put your right hand on his chest and left hand on his rump and force him to stop.  Make him stay still for four or five seconds.  If he squirms, pick him up and set him down and, as soon as his feet touch the table, give the whoa command and hold him in place.  Continue this exercise seven times and then stop.  Repeat another set of seven again that day if possible.
    
Once the dog understands and obeys the “whoa” command, buy a suitcase handle from Lion Country Supply (www.Lcsupply.com ).  Use the suitcase handle to continue teaching whoa but now do it while walking the dog on the ground.   Continue until you have 100% compliance.  Now it’s time to use the e-collar.  Many professional trainers prefer flank placement of the e-collar for teaching the “whoa” command.  This simply means putting the e-collar around the belly rather than the neck.  Once learned and used in the field, the “whoa” command is often used around birds.  The theory is that stimulation should be kept as far from the bird as possible.  In other words, from the dogs point of view, the stimulation cannot be coming from a bird so no need to become bird shy. 
    
On a check cord, lead your dog around the yard.  As with the “kennel” command we learned last month and the “here” command above, we start by stimulating first, giving the command and then turning off as quickly as the dog stops to whoa.  This process should go very quickly.  Do a set of three exercises and then three later in the day.  The next day do three in the morning and then, in the afternoon, flip the process and give the command, stimulate as quickly as the dog stops.  We’ve created complete association between the command, stimulation and action required.  Both the command and stimulation are now interchangeable.
    
Both you and your dog now understand the basics of e-collar training and use.  In last month’s column, I mentioned that I would explain why we introduce the e-collar to a command that has already been taught.  Professional trainers talk about something called the 70% or 80% rule.  This means that no matter how well trained your dog is, they violate that training two or three times out of ten.  I won’t go into all the reasons, however, from simple distraction to “hey, I don’t feel like it” are reasons why a command is not followed.  The e-collar provides the only method of delivering immediate correction when a learned command is disobeyed.  And the correction is delivered without the emotion of a screaming voice. 
    
At this point in the process, a beginner may ask, “when do I use momentary and when do I use continuous stimulation?”  Continuous stimulation is used to force a dog to stop.  Momentary stimulation is given when a dog is moving and you want him to continue to move.  An example would be if you had a dog on a long check cord and were teaching a criss-cross pattern in the field.  You might give a momentary stimulus and then give the command to “turn” or whatever commands you might use for this exercise. 
    
After a command has been fully taught in the yard and understood by the dog, it’s time to move the training to the field.  The next time your dog is racing toward a highway, chasing a deer or busting birds, you have the tools to make a correction.  Remember, always use the lowest level of stimulation to get the desired reaction.  This frequently will be within the first three levels on your transmitter dial.
    
One last comment.  After your dog understands the e-collar, a common training method is to use the tone or vibration feature on your collar as an early warning system…in other words, pre-stimulation.  Most dogs that learn the meaning of the tone or vibration will never need stimulation.
    
Good luck with your e-collar training.  Please use it wisely.

Paul Fuller is host of Bird Dogs Afield TV, which may be seen in New England on WBIN-TV October through December.  Previous TV broadcasts, dozens of training and upland hunting videos and Paul’s previous Sporting Journal columns may be seen or read on Paul’s website which is www.birddogsafield.com.  Paul may be contacted at pau@birddogsafield.com.

Some field trial enthusiasts use e-collars in that manner, some don't and some won't use them at all. A thread about it on one of their boards would read much like this one - there will be some for, some against.

 

I try very hard to stay neutral on things that I have limited knowledge of.....now the things that I know pretty well......I can be a bitch......