The Bottleneck of the Century - Only one bloodline left! - Page 14

Debby, Once again you put words and thoughts in my head that are "WRONG". WHO said that I don't care about the total dog. What is wrong with owning and breeding dogs that look like Marko vom Cellerland and Bernd v Lierberg!!! These are the type of dogs that I like, own, and breed!! They are correct, they are the "REAL TOTAL DOG" and they are superior to anything competeing in the BSZS. Because Marko and Bernd would probably be given an "SG" 1 today by Judges is an indication of how wrong the Show venue is today, because they are already "PROVEN TOTAL DOGS ". So don't tell me that I don't like the total dog because I didn't change what I saw , owned , and continued to breed for which were total dogs. These dogs worked, were beautiful, AND produced working and beautiful dogs at TOP levels. Now who is really striving for the total dog.!

I absolutly agree DeesWolf! It's a training issue. But I repeat, there is NOTHING there in that routine that would have failed him in a Schutzhund OR IPO trial. He heeled to the blind very well and did not run around the field or hesitate to engage. He was chewy on the sleeve in antisipation of the out and then was dirty. Of course that's not correct. But it does not fail a dog either. His grips were good albeit slipping some in the drive and the antisapation of the out. ALL training issues. To me the dog showed nice drive and attitude and great potential with some training. Of couse a well trained and perfected dog is more impressive! But this is a good dog and just needs some TLC and learn to cap. Just think what he was do if he learned to cap that energy!!! After all he showed no fear and did everything that was required of him. You can not make it the dog's fault that the training was poor. I LOVE A HAPPY ENERGETIC ATTITUDE!

Case in point... the show crowd loved it because, just as you said, THEY take it that it shows the dog's drive and desire when they are dirty.  The show camp does not care to perfect training. They see this as a fantastic performance. Misguided for sure. But it was, UNFORTUNATELY, above average for a Sieger Show. Just wish that I had a part in helping this dog get the proper training!!

Debby

I guess we see different things in the video. I notice the moment the dog knows the handler is approaching and the dog bites the sleeve. I see a dog who is worried, and a dog who is not convincing me in the guard. (I love a loud barking serious guard, we just don't see them often, wonder why?)

I also think that if you are going to show your dog in a regional, national or world event the dog should be trained for it and be at its best.  I think the dog was committed to the bite on the attack out of the blind and on the courage test. Dog could be a diamond in the rough. If it is a training issue, then seriously, if the dog is already an IPO2, these things we saw shouldn't have been an issue.

blitzen regarding svalt and the sz i have no idea but  from going through some of the pedigrees listed here and following a few of the lines gustav spoke about back to the beginning - the best pattern i could find is most of the svalt numbers seem to belong to the foundation dogs and sz numbers seem to belong to the progeny that went on to breed, but this is not 100% true, so svalt might be an older registry and sz a newer one? again just guessing here. regarding the foundation dogs (F1 or producers of F1) for the entire breed (not the foundation bloodlines which have been used to make up sl & wl) there are more but here's the list i've found so far of 15 sires and 26 dams, according to this db, that appear to be either F1s or  producers of F1s:

Males
Roland 990611
Basko Rüde 990026
Greif (Sparwasser) 990217
Wolf Rüde 990698
Phylax (von Waldenreut) 990551
Siegfried von der Emscher SZ/5187
Franz 990193
Prinz Wolf 990579
Phylax von der Krone 99055
Luchs von der Krone 990410
Caro Ruede Abst.unbek 990066
Stromer (Ruede) 990668
Lump (Ruede) 990432
Russ (Rüde) 990629
Tyrann (Ruede) 990688
Females
Courage 990086
Amabilis Minerva NHSB/501185
Schäfermädchen von Hanau SZ 154
Lotte (Sparwasser) 990358
Prima SZ/152
Bella (Hündin) 990037
Lotti vom Klosterhof 990406
Lumpie Hündin 990433
Mira Hündin 990500
Mädel 990438
Nelly III (von Balingen) 990528
Tillie (Hündin) 990683
Alte Lotte (Ulrich) 990019
Else von Hohensalzburg 990124
Werra 990715
Amanda von Röden 990014
Madam von der Krone, die Ältere 990442
Sali von der Krone 990635
Irma von der Krone 990306
Schmuck Hündin Abst.unbekannt 990646
Rassa (Hündin) 990590
Fanny (Hündin) 990141
Madame I von der Krone 990440
Perle Hündin 990547
Minka (Hündin) 990476  
Gretle (vom Schatten) 990231

just an fyi the 990*** are svalt numbers

Gutsav,

You mistook what I ment. I ment that you did not care about  bringing the show and work together to bring back the total GSD.

Sounds like you are doing a good job. I love Marko and have a male that is very similar, has him 3x in the back, that I adore. But neither you nor I have any control over where the breed standard goes. People have different inturpretations of it. I myself see nothing in there that says the dog needs to be as angulated as some are. I do not like extreem angulation either.  I too wish that we could stay with Marko's body type! 

Deeswolf,

In this case I in my opinion the dog knows that the sleeve is going away and wants to keep it  when the handler approaches, and hence the dirtyness. I do not see the normal nervy behaviour that you see in so many, when the handler comes up they keep looking back at them and not guarding. to me this is more the sign of a worried dog than getting dirty because he knows the handler will take him away. ABSOLUTLY  the guard should have been better. PURE training though. Not the dog it's self. His body language says that he is having fun and is happy. Not worried.

You and I both have a higher standard than that, for ANY test whether it be national or club level. But we are not the typical show breeders. AGAIN, the dog did nothing that would have failed him in a true Sch or IPO test so why is it so hard to believe that he passed one?  They obviously trained him just to pass and left out the details that would have made it a really nice routine. They just do not think like us.

That brings up work tests and judges and what passes and what does not. You look at a title and expect that it was judged the same way as the BSP. Even though they should ALL be that way, they are not. So what passes is not always equal in comparison to each other.  I believe like you that the "bar" should be even and high across the board. But the unfortunate truth is that many titles are mailed away for, as well as midnight trials, and judges ignoring things that should have been marked off for. and the list goes on and on.  I look at a title and say SHOW ME, before I fully believe that it is a good dog. To me they have ruined a titles validity and now we much see and judge for ourselves if the dog is worthy or not.

Debby

Debbie, No problem and I don't dislike "all showlines", there was a dog named Zulu Beluga, owned by Venita of Beluga kennels. This dog could flat out work. Hard, tough, with good drive. I went over to Venita and sais you have a nice dog, and I bet there is a lot of "Mutz" in this dog. She smiled and said "you know something about showlines", yes he is from Mutz on top and bottom. This was a V dog in a national event and she was training for the Universal Seiger. I really liked this dog a lot, but he was a real dog without excuses. You see I admire the beauty of the work and if a showline can work I like him.  I don't know showlines since the eighties but I do know the genetic weaknesses and try to stay away for breeding purposes of dogs that are loaded with the L litter Wienerau.

Thanks for the list of foundation dogs, justcurious. I appreciate the time that took.  I had some, not all of them from Mutz's pedigree. I never did finish that, got too lazy and distracted by the nice weather here. I am wondering it the SVALT numbers were issued to the dogs that produced the first registered dogs. The SV accepted their being purebred based on their production rather than their background? Does that make sense? Looks like a small base of foundation dogs. I think I once read here that there were around 125 foundation dogs so we may be just scratching the surface.

It's interesting to us dog nerds, probably not so to most everyone else .

Gustav, Venita bred my current dog. He's not out of Zulu, he's sired by Urr v Trienzbachtal out of Panama v Beluga.  Panama is a litter sister to Zulu's sire, Puma.  Venita's kennel name was Wiesbaden, v Beluga was a lady in Germany, forget her name now. I think Venita is out of GSD's and I haven't heard of v Beluga for a few years either.  As far as I know Zulu's last show was the Bakersfield NASS. Last I heard Venita  was breeding Yorkies. I thought she had some really nice GSD's and I often wonder if she still has them and how she is doing.  Most of her dogs would be elderly by now, Urr is probably close to 10 and Zulu is no longer a puppy either. I never did hear much from her after I bought Blitz.

"Clubs need to recognize that there are show line dogs with ability and if an owner is willing to put forth the effort to train that dog, then help that person and promote that desire. I cannot accept that the majority of clubs "refuse" to accept a dog because it is a show line. Yes, those of us with show lines have to work several times harder to get what we want from our dogs."

I really couldn't say how the majority of clubs treat showlines, but that's not the case at mine. We have one breeder of showlines that works hard, and is every bit deserving of my respect. The dogs of this breeder would probably have put all at the 2008 USA Sieger show to shame, and I have learned much from this person. At our club we all work together to provide the best training for our dogs, so IMO the success of each dog is not simply owed to the handler, decoy, and training director, but also other members of the club.

I can respect a showline dog that can do the work. But as far as mixing the two; there is a clear division in the genepools of the two lines, and a breeder devotes alot of time and effort to become intimately knowlegeable of the bloodlines he's breeding with, and the branches from those lines on to the next are a more rewarding transgression. You can't make the leap without building a knowlegebase from the ground up. If there's an "idiot's guide to showlines" I'd have to get it, because it would nearly be like learning a new breed, no small undertaking. My feelings are, if the showline breeders that want to introduce workinglines into their breeding can maintain the level of ability that they introduced, and if those that were produced, can in turn reproduce that working ability, then respect is deserved.

I am unaware of any showline breeder that successfully brought working ability into their lines. The ones I've heard about that can work, I've assumed were probably strong enough to begin with, it wasn't "bred out".