HOLY LINEBREEDING, BATMAN! - Page 6

i just looked at previous posts on other forums ....do you breed or even own a GSD?

Jeff - maybe some of your accomplishments do not show up on the internet, but a quick search shows that you have a malinois, perhaps a pit bull and perhaps belong to a Mondio Ring Club.  Maybe you have a GSD, but there is no information on you or your Kennel, what you have raised or trained.  The example you gave was a malinois breeder and they just have not been popular enough or regulated enough over the past 100 years to experience the repeated linebreeding that the GSD's have.  When a breed becomes popular, greed insues, breeding shortcuts are taken and then you end up with genetic problems like the GSD.  Hopefully Malinois will not go that way.

GSD's are experiencing way too much inbred/too close linebreeding problems ovre many generations, not just one..  You do not have to have experience breeding to see the results.  Germany is having a tough time especially in the showlines and its cropping up in the working lines with weak/floppy ears, dogs that are too big/oversize, lack of testicles, hip and elbow problems, nerve problems, lack of bite work ability, lack of workng ability.  This comes from greedy and careless breeding and also from just breeding for "pretty" much like the American GSD in the early 60's started out reasonable and now it is a very different GSD from the rest of the world.

Inbreeding is not good overall.  The chances of the "bad" genes matching up and creating quite a problem combined with the greed of people who must sell dogs to support themselves just perpetuates the problems and makes the breed weak. 

This board is littered with people who have tremendous disappointments from unscrupulous breeders who have problems in their bloodlines and the ensuing genetic problems.  It is proof enough that inbreeding is not good as a rule of thumb nor is it a tool that should be used by just anyone if used at all.  The SV stricltly forbids inbreeding - close linebreeding they still allow.  AKC has no restrictions and I think that speaks to why we have to import working dogs, why we look to the foreign breed registries who do have regulations about breeding for better dogs. 

When you combine unsophisticated new buyers whose hearts are into buying a dog they admire with unscroupulous breeders/sellers who need money and do not disclose potential genetic problems in the bloodlines, you have a set up where that buyer becomes jaded against the sport or breed, the dog is in jeopardy of losing a home and the only one who walks away OK is the breeder with the money.  That is not a good situation.

If (Ideal world) people were altruistic in their breeding, then there would not be so many problems with the dogs.  Like another post said, there are super GSD bloodlines out there to breed and cross without linebreeding.  What is refreshing I have been noticing in the results of some of the top dogs (working), they are total outcrosses.

The one thing you said that my vets and breeder friends concurr with is that when you do the inbreeding, most if not all of the pups are bad. They die or shortly die, have to be put down for genetic problems.  What a nightmare.  There is that fluke where if one makes it, they usually are a good dog with all the good attributes because nature just hit right with the good genes.  But this is a miniscule percentage and is not worth the risk.  Just the thought of a litter of puppies with genetic problems suffering and needing to be "culled" ( nice word for killed at birth) just really turns the stomach.

Canto Wienerau is famous for the hemophelia which has passed on to many, many dogs and I am sure was heartbreaking for the dogs and their owners.  For many years people had to have their dogs tested to see if they had this gene from this bloodline and all the linebreeding t

Kim, the end of your post is missing!

Oops the post was too long.

What I went on to say is that no one should ever take the chance of inbreeding dogs, getting many dogs that are no good and that could suffer at birth just to be killed (culled) for the sake of getting one good dog. 

I had an irresponsible breeding, I am able to take responsiblity morally and financially for it good bad or indifferent outcome.  I do not sell dogs and no one but me or the pup would suffer.  I do not condone ever inbreeding. Ethically you do not sacrifice many for the sake of one.

 Quote:   The example you gave was a malinois breeder and they just have not been popular enough or regulated enough over the past 100 years to experience the repeated linebreeding that the GSD's have.  When a breed becomes popular, greed insues, breeding shortcuts are taken and then you end up with genetic problems like the GSD.  Hopefully Malinois will not go that way.

It is a dutch shepherd. I think his family has been breeding them for some time. I will ask him. Pretty sure the DS was around before the GSD.

My issue is that the genetic issues are not dealt with, but skirted around. 

Quote: The one thing you said that my vets and breeder friends concurr with is that when you do the inbreeding, most if not all of the pups are bad. They die or shortly die, have to be put down for genetic problems.  What a nightmare.

Well said. However, the parents were the genetic nightmare, and the pups paid for it. This is what I was talking about when I said that a line will extinguish itself. It is also why I am so curious about this womens work. I will see what the other guy is saying as well. What was he breeding that did so poorly ???

Quote: This comes from greedy and careless breeding and also from just breeding for "pretty"

I admit that inbreeding showlines will probably result in extinguishment. LOL I did not have so many dead puppies around. When you use them later on, you do not lose puppies. Tight inbreeding will pop recessives and that is why the puppies die. They get all the genetic crap that is in the parents. The others will have much less, and they are not so prevalent.

Have you bred this way before with good stock ???? Despite what england says, not a troll. Permasmartass, yes. 

I was curious, from this QUOTE: Inbreeding is not good overall.  The chances of the "bad" genes matching up and creating quite a problem combined with the greed of people who must sell dogs to support themselves just perpetuates the problems and makes the breed weak.

If it creates quite a problem, then you know not to use that dog. However, people will use a dog with many problems if they like him. They will stay away from breeding too close so that they do not show what junk he is with all the problems. Horrible people are everywhere. Inbreeding to see if the dog is a walking genetic time bomb would help the breed a lot. 

My thing is that when it is really bad to inbreed, because all the puppies die or have lots of health issues, then the dogs you are breeding are the ones passing this. You are not creating this, it is there, brought to the surface. More responsible to man up and find out. I know most are horrified by the culling of puppies, but continuously passing genetic problems around by "careful" breeding is worse.

I did not have the numbers you are describing die out most of the time. I culled the trash and called it a day. Not easy, but at least I was not adding to the trash.

 Quote: What I went on to say is that no one should ever take the chance of inbreeding dogs, getting many dogs that are no good and that could suffer at birth just to be killed (culled) for the sake of getting one good dog.

I addressed the getting only one good dog thing. You are the one that had the accident yes??? I would say the one good pup was from the breeding being so late more than genetics.

Come to the workingdogforum.com and you can talk to someone who is breeding Airedales really tight and doing it NOW. He is a good source about this as well. His name is Don Turnipseed. He breeds them for hunting.

People who breed like this are idiots.

Plain and simple.

 Are YOU a breeder ?? Don't take this personally. I would like to know what experience you have had.

A life time.

Its still idiotic.

Jeff, Let it go now, nobody wants to row and nobody agrees with you.