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by workingdogz on 27 June 2012 - 18:06
A good breeder works/trains, titles and/or shows
their dogs.
They are 'out there' with their dogs, if you as a buyer
gets 'out there', you will find them doing something
with their dogs in a recognized arena.
A good breeder will health test their dogs, at least for
the basics of hips/elbows. There are many tests available
to have done (DM, CERF etc), but bare bones basics
are hips/elbows. A good breeder will not use a dog with
bad hips/elbows (insert other health issue here), period,
for ANY reason.
A good breeder will know about the dogs behind their dogs.
They will be open and honest about any known produced
health/temperment issues etc.
A good breeder may or many NOT offer a contract,
but they normally will stand behind their dogs regardless.
A 'really' good breeder will have a generation or two on the
ground of their own bloodlines as well, that they have worked
and titled/shown.
A bad breeder talks a mile of shit about how their dogs
'could do this/that'. And how a ______ title means 'nothing'.
They generally never leave their backyard.
A bad breeder will breed dogs with no registration, no
health checks/testing etc. They do nothing outside of their
own back yard with their dogs.
The hard part will be that you the buyer needs to do
some legwork and not just sit back and eat up every
spoonful you are fed and expect it to be the truth.
Verify titles and health testing that is claimed to be done.
Ask around in the venues they participate in about them.
Google them. Read the sales contract not once, not twice,
but 10 times to make sure you are comfortable with it.
Ask for clarification of things, and have it put in writing.
Don't fall for hype and a constant 'internet presence'.
Most people put more time into purchasing a blender than
they do a puppy.
You can also do what we do, buy a pup from a small breeder
that does the best they can to ensure they produce healthy
pups that meet or exceed the breed standard in structure
and working abiltiy, as well as temperment etc.
These breeders don't always offer a 'written guarantee',
but they work, title & test their dogs.
They also don't sell them for $1500 + up,
but you will pay shipping from EU.
We buy the pup, it's our. Good bad and ugly.
These are living creatures, not manufactured
non-beings, shit happens sometimes.
For what it's worth, most good breeders will offer
some form of compensation regardless of a guarantee.
their dogs.
They are 'out there' with their dogs, if you as a buyer
gets 'out there', you will find them doing something
with their dogs in a recognized arena.
A good breeder will health test their dogs, at least for
the basics of hips/elbows. There are many tests available
to have done (DM, CERF etc), but bare bones basics
are hips/elbows. A good breeder will not use a dog with
bad hips/elbows (insert other health issue here), period,
for ANY reason.
A good breeder will know about the dogs behind their dogs.
They will be open and honest about any known produced
health/temperment issues etc.
A good breeder may or many NOT offer a contract,
but they normally will stand behind their dogs regardless.
A 'really' good breeder will have a generation or two on the
ground of their own bloodlines as well, that they have worked
and titled/shown.
A bad breeder talks a mile of shit about how their dogs
'could do this/that'. And how a ______ title means 'nothing'.
They generally never leave their backyard.
A bad breeder will breed dogs with no registration, no
health checks/testing etc. They do nothing outside of their
own back yard with their dogs.
The hard part will be that you the buyer needs to do
some legwork and not just sit back and eat up every
spoonful you are fed and expect it to be the truth.
Verify titles and health testing that is claimed to be done.
Ask around in the venues they participate in about them.
Google them. Read the sales contract not once, not twice,
but 10 times to make sure you are comfortable with it.
Ask for clarification of things, and have it put in writing.
Don't fall for hype and a constant 'internet presence'.
Most people put more time into purchasing a blender than
they do a puppy.
You can also do what we do, buy a pup from a small breeder
that does the best they can to ensure they produce healthy
pups that meet or exceed the breed standard in structure
and working abiltiy, as well as temperment etc.
These breeders don't always offer a 'written guarantee',
but they work, title & test their dogs.
They also don't sell them for $1500 + up,
but you will pay shipping from EU.
We buy the pup, it's our. Good bad and ugly.
These are living creatures, not manufactured
non-beings, shit happens sometimes.
For what it's worth, most good breeders will offer
some form of compensation regardless of a guarantee.
by kitkat3478 on 27 June 2012 - 18:06
My problem is not with a breeder that refunds money instead of a pup, it is the breeder who refunds nothing, does not return phone calls,blames the buyer like jerseygirl just encountered.
A dog is not like a TV or auto, but the Trade Commission requires a person be "Made Whole"in those situations, when a car is defective, it is recalled, repaired and returned to the buyer, "FIT" for its intended purpose. It should be no different with dogs.
by Jenni78 on 27 June 2012 - 18:06
"Debilitating genetic defects?" 
Suffice to say that if you've decided you're on TH's "side" by default, your most helpful move would be to keep completely quiet on that one and not provoke me to explain. And of course I paid to get him back, right after I cashed my paycheck, as I said I would, when I said I would.
Even workingdogz agrees that puppies are not microwaves...there are some really scary statements being made in these recurring threads. Niesia makes some good points, as well. No one wants to assume personal responsibility today; everyone wants to blame someone else and won't even take care of what's theirs for the sake of it just being the RIGHT THING TO DO!
Suffice to say that if you've decided you're on TH's "side" by default, your most helpful move would be to keep completely quiet on that one and not provoke me to explain. And of course I paid to get him back, right after I cashed my paycheck, as I said I would, when I said I would. Even workingdogz agrees that puppies are not microwaves...there are some really scary statements being made in these recurring threads. Niesia makes some good points, as well. No one wants to assume personal responsibility today; everyone wants to blame someone else and won't even take care of what's theirs for the sake of it just being the RIGHT THING TO DO!
by beetree on 27 June 2012 - 18:06
Jenni, please don't threaten me.
by mollyandjack on 27 June 2012 - 18:06
I always thought that you bought a puppy for companionship and an adult for a guarantee of good hips, health, temperament, and working ability - guaranteed by verifiable information like OFA or SV rating, seeing the dog work, etc. Puppies are just potential...no contract in the world will change that. A good breeder will stand behind the dogs they produce, regardless, and try to do what is in the best interest of the dog. Hopefully the buyer will too.
by workingdogz on 27 June 2012 - 19:06
My main point is, when we purchase, we do so
without the premise of a 'guarantee'.
Seems like for every one breeder that 'honors' their written
guarantee, there seems to be 5 that want to find ways to
back peddle and weasel out.
Hence our dealing with breeders who make no promises other
than a puppy that is free of any visibile illness, and passes a
general health check at a vet clinic prior to shipping.
without the premise of a 'guarantee'.
Seems like for every one breeder that 'honors' their written
guarantee, there seems to be 5 that want to find ways to
back peddle and weasel out.
Hence our dealing with breeders who make no promises other
than a puppy that is free of any visibile illness, and passes a
general health check at a vet clinic prior to shipping.
by starrchar on 27 June 2012 - 19:06
I have not bought a puppy since my experience with the severely dysplastic puppy. It has been more than 20 years since that experience and I learned a very hard and valuable lesson. The dog I got after that was 15 months old and the one after that was an adult rescue.
To equate a living being with a TV or microwave is something I can't relate to.
I would like to know why a breeder would want a pup with severe health issues to be sent back (unless they want to kill the pup to hide the evidence a defective pup came from their kennel), especially if the breeder knows the pup will be well cared for. Is that not worth it to refund the money? No one else will want the pup! Does it boil down to greed? I was a breeder of horses in the past and there was always a contract written when a horse was sold, but when it came down to it, if the unexpected happened, I was human and it was more important to do what was best for the animal, as well as end up with a happy customer. Truth be told, I was a very lousy business person because the animals and the people were always the most important thing, above money and everything else.
To equate a living being with a TV or microwave is something I can't relate to.
I would like to know why a breeder would want a pup with severe health issues to be sent back (unless they want to kill the pup to hide the evidence a defective pup came from their kennel), especially if the breeder knows the pup will be well cared for. Is that not worth it to refund the money? No one else will want the pup! Does it boil down to greed? I was a breeder of horses in the past and there was always a contract written when a horse was sold, but when it came down to it, if the unexpected happened, I was human and it was more important to do what was best for the animal, as well as end up with a happy customer. Truth be told, I was a very lousy business person because the animals and the people were always the most important thing, above money and everything else.
by Niesia on 27 June 2012 - 19:06
Please don't say that puppies are not merchandise. If you think they are not - why do you pay for them and why do you demand your money back or replacement if the puppy is 'faulty'?
Reality check - If puppies were not merchandise - we would be adopting them as we do kids. Who expects their money back or asks for a replacement of an adopted kid? The moment we adopt them, they became solely our responsibility.
Why we sign contracts? Because our memory is very convenient. All problems start when we demand something more than is written in the contract because all of a sudden we feel entitled to it. We forget that both sides agreed to the CONTRACT as it was and signed it.
If there is common understanding on both sides and willingness to work it out - there is no reason why the problem couldn't be solved to the satisfaction of both sides even outside of the scope of the contract. When things get emotional we tend to see only our side of the story - the reason why there are contracts in the first place.
One more reason to be careful about choosing the right breeder.
Reality check - If puppies were not merchandise - we would be adopting them as we do kids. Who expects their money back or asks for a replacement of an adopted kid? The moment we adopt them, they became solely our responsibility.
Why we sign contracts? Because our memory is very convenient. All problems start when we demand something more than is written in the contract because all of a sudden we feel entitled to it. We forget that both sides agreed to the CONTRACT as it was and signed it.
If there is common understanding on both sides and willingness to work it out - there is no reason why the problem couldn't be solved to the satisfaction of both sides even outside of the scope of the contract. When things get emotional we tend to see only our side of the story - the reason why there are contracts in the first place.
One more reason to be careful about choosing the right breeder.
by mollyandjack on 27 June 2012 - 19:06
I have to disagree. Puppies are not even legally considered the same as merchandise. Do you have to legally provide food, shelter, and water to a microwave? This distinction between puppy and microwave should be CENTRAL in our decision-making and in any contract.
by Niesia on 27 June 2012 - 19:06
If you adopt a dog from a pound, pay your adoption fee and sign adoption agreement - will you ask the pound to give you your money back or give you a replacement dog (while you keep the previous one)? Will you ask them to pay (even if only partially) for the expensive surgery of the adopted dog if it happens to develop health issues?
Why not?
Why not?
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