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by Abby Normal on 14 February 2013 - 14:02
Well nobody actually answered my question, but, reading the above it appears that what is being said is that you cannot get absolutely top competitive 'precision' training (in the opinions expressed here) WITHOUT the use of an e-collar - is that correct?
Is it the same kind of thing as using anabolic steroids 'to win' because all the other competitors are doing it?
I would find it sad to think that one cannot train a dog to absolute precision without it, and indeed know that this is not the case (though I myself have not trained to the standard displayed here LOL) but to a much lower (competitive) obedience level. My gut says to me that the e-collar makes it easier to do so, though I cannot speak from experience, not having used one! I am not suggesting it is right or wrong BTW, just my sense of training accomplishment would make me want to do it without that 'artificial' influence. I know what I mean, I hope maybe someone else does too. I just want it to be me and the dog.
Is it the same kind of thing as using anabolic steroids 'to win' because all the other competitors are doing it?
I would find it sad to think that one cannot train a dog to absolute precision without it, and indeed know that this is not the case (though I myself have not trained to the standard displayed here LOL) but to a much lower (competitive) obedience level. My gut says to me that the e-collar makes it easier to do so, though I cannot speak from experience, not having used one! I am not suggesting it is right or wrong BTW, just my sense of training accomplishment would make me want to do it without that 'artificial' influence. I know what I mean, I hope maybe someone else does too. I just want it to be me and the dog.
by joanro on 14 February 2013 - 14:02
Abby, I understand what you're saying in regards to 'want it to be me and the dog' without 'that artificial influence'. However, one of the positive aspects I see the ecollar affords is a less physical aspect to corrections. In other words: if you have a dog that is hard, and is intent on taking down the very animals you intend it to herd, instead of having a physical confrontation to get your point across to the dog, the ecollar takes the place of that confrontation. If used correctly, there is no conflict or lack of understanding by the dog.
by Hired Dog on 14 February 2013 - 14:02
Abby, I understand what you mean, but, look at the E collar as just a training tool, like the choker or prong you are using to train your dog. If you know what you are doing with one, its no more "abusive", for lack of better word, then either of those 2 other tools.
Yes, E collars do make life a lot easier to train or proof some behaviors, yes, with the amount of finesse needed at top levels, you need immediate and minute control and the E collar allows that without letting distance or timing became a hindrance.
And since I did compete in body building, I can tell you that the name of the game is who is using more steroids and who you need to top in order to win...another reason I no longer compete.
Yes, E collars do make life a lot easier to train or proof some behaviors, yes, with the amount of finesse needed at top levels, you need immediate and minute control and the E collar allows that without letting distance or timing became a hindrance.
And since I did compete in body building, I can tell you that the name of the game is who is using more steroids and who you need to top in order to win...another reason I no longer compete.
by ramgsd on 14 February 2013 - 16:02
Abby, yes you are correct that it can and has been done. Unforetunately the thread got a little off track due to Hans "veiled" I HATE E-COLLAR posts?
You said "my sense of training accomplishment would make me want to do it without that 'artificial' influence" an e-collar is no more artificial that a leash and prong.
I find it strange how strongly people who have never used an e-collar or seen one used properly feel about them. Probably the same way people felt about choke chains and prong collars when they first came out.
You said "my sense of training accomplishment would make me want to do it without that 'artificial' influence" an e-collar is no more artificial that a leash and prong.
I find it strange how strongly people who have never used an e-collar or seen one used properly feel about them. Probably the same way people felt about choke chains and prong collars when they first came out.
by Prager on 14 February 2013 - 16:02
Jim and Ramgsd, first of all I thought that posting posts from other forums without permission is against TOS 14.
TOS 14: post any material on PBD from another forum without the express permission of that forum's site administration or copyright owners.
But I am glad that you have done so, because that action illustrates clearly the point which is - your need for deception to make your ( Slamdunc and Ramgsd )point. That is since you took my post completely out of context. The original post has over 64 lines where I explained foundation building and other pats of training and you took all these relevant parts of the description of such training out and used only 5 lines. You actually skipped 96% +/- of my explanation!!!! In order to make your false point. Your action seems to indicate that it is so since perhaps you do not understand basics of classical training or can not stand it if someone presents it in their explanation of training where you do not use e collar. I may be wrong, but then why the deception?
You completely, arbitrarily and capriciously omitted the foundation part of my description of the training in my argument and what you posted here as my training method is actually just a last part ( application section) of the section of the training where usually no correction is even necessary. That is if the first part of training was done right. What you did is akin of me coming here and saying that you 2 buy collar and just zap crap out of the dog with e collar on highest level in first session at his age of 6 weeks and up, all the time.
For the record : I am not saying such thing.
FYI: there is necessary and I use and in my post I have described shortly but clearly a foundation and preparation section, learning section of each training, conditioning section of the training and application section of the training. I have also described transfer from each section to the next.
But you skipped most of it not to just make a point on training but to attack me.
That is why I posted this thread in order to alert people that there are other methods then training with e collar. I am glad that your training with e collar works, but you are exactly the example of the trainers who will not "see" the other methods and thus it is inconceivable for you that I say: "no I am not against e collar if used properly but I am not using it". I am not against Friesian horses but when I "use" quarter horses. I have nothing against Akitas but I " use" GSD, and I am not against Mercedes but I "use" Dodge, Ford and Toyota.
Thus someone's argument that If I would not be against e collar I would use it is just not logical.
Again about me posting here my training videos. I will not.
1.First of all I do not see any videos of people challenging me to do so, to post their's.
2. I do not care for your illogical and injurious, malicious comments.
3. logically I do not need to in order to make point on a topic post my videos here, same as I can condemn concentration camps,without me posting a video of me visiting one. I can make a point on a sculpture of David without making a video of me making a sculpture of anything or video of me visiting Italy looking at such sculpture. I can keep on going on and on. Thus to say that I have no right to post my opinions on training because i do not have video of me training is not logical.
And again this thread is not about criticizing e collars but asking if it is necessary to use them in order to train precision.
The people who are on defensive here - the ones who use e collars - must be doing so because they have bad consciousness. Otherwise I do not understand why they would need to sway any discussion which even remotely mentions e collar into the field of personal attacks and rabid defense of their electronic device.
Prager Hans
TOS 14: post any material on PBD from another forum without the express permission of that forum's site administration or copyright owners.
But I am glad that you have done so, because that action illustrates clearly the point which is - your need for deception to make your ( Slamdunc and Ramgsd )point. That is since you took my post completely out of context. The original post has over 64 lines where I explained foundation building and other pats of training and you took all these relevant parts of the description of such training out and used only 5 lines. You actually skipped 96% +/- of my explanation!!!! In order to make your false point. Your action seems to indicate that it is so since perhaps you do not understand basics of classical training or can not stand it if someone presents it in their explanation of training where you do not use e collar. I may be wrong, but then why the deception?
You completely, arbitrarily and capriciously omitted the foundation part of my description of the training in my argument and what you posted here as my training method is actually just a last part ( application section) of the section of the training where usually no correction is even necessary. That is if the first part of training was done right. What you did is akin of me coming here and saying that you 2 buy collar and just zap crap out of the dog with e collar on highest level in first session at his age of 6 weeks and up, all the time.
For the record : I am not saying such thing.
FYI: there is necessary and I use and in my post I have described shortly but clearly a foundation and preparation section, learning section of each training, conditioning section of the training and application section of the training. I have also described transfer from each section to the next.
But you skipped most of it not to just make a point on training but to attack me.
That is why I posted this thread in order to alert people that there are other methods then training with e collar. I am glad that your training with e collar works, but you are exactly the example of the trainers who will not "see" the other methods and thus it is inconceivable for you that I say: "no I am not against e collar if used properly but I am not using it". I am not against Friesian horses but when I "use" quarter horses. I have nothing against Akitas but I " use" GSD, and I am not against Mercedes but I "use" Dodge, Ford and Toyota.
Thus someone's argument that If I would not be against e collar I would use it is just not logical.
Again about me posting here my training videos. I will not.
1.First of all I do not see any videos of people challenging me to do so, to post their's.
2. I do not care for your illogical and injurious, malicious comments.
3. logically I do not need to in order to make point on a topic post my videos here, same as I can condemn concentration camps,without me posting a video of me visiting one. I can make a point on a sculpture of David without making a video of me making a sculpture of anything or video of me visiting Italy looking at such sculpture. I can keep on going on and on. Thus to say that I have no right to post my opinions on training because i do not have video of me training is not logical.
And again this thread is not about criticizing e collars but asking if it is necessary to use them in order to train precision.
The people who are on defensive here - the ones who use e collars - must be doing so because they have bad consciousness. Otherwise I do not understand why they would need to sway any discussion which even remotely mentions e collar into the field of personal attacks and rabid defense of their electronic device.
Prager Hans
by joanro on 14 February 2013 - 16:02
Ecollar is no more artificial than a head halter on a dog, or a bit in a horse's mouth.
by Working GSDs on 14 February 2013 - 16:02
I was asking myself. Is this supposed to be an open discussion with exchanges that help us learn,or do you just want to be right?
I just got my answer. Egos can be our worst ennemies.
Mike
I just got my answer. Egos can be our worst ennemies.
Mike
by Prager on 14 February 2013 - 16:02
Someone here said that there are ways for dog to be trained with e collar and then when the e collar is removed the dog will still listen.
Here are 3 questions.
1.If I put e collar on your neck and train you with all the proper rules and psychology. Then I take the collar off your neck . Will you notice that the collar is not present?
2. Why is it then that LE dogs if trained and certified with e collars MUST have such device on them when on duty?
3. If it does not matter to the dog who is properly trained if the collar is on or not then why do dogs of even best trainers on the world get trial wise. That is the dogs do not perform as well on the field then they do in training with e collar on?
Prager Hans
P.S. have you ever heard of conditioning extinction as described by. Pavlov?
Here are 3 questions.
1.If I put e collar on your neck and train you with all the proper rules and psychology. Then I take the collar off your neck . Will you notice that the collar is not present?
2. Why is it then that LE dogs if trained and certified with e collars MUST have such device on them when on duty?
3. If it does not matter to the dog who is properly trained if the collar is on or not then why do dogs of even best trainers on the world get trial wise. That is the dogs do not perform as well on the field then they do in training with e collar on?
Prager Hans
P.S. have you ever heard of conditioning extinction as described by. Pavlov?
by Slamdunc on 14 February 2013 - 16:02
Abby,
You said:
Anyway, I have never yet had need to train with an e collar, and my dogs have done fine in obedience and are well behaved in all situations. Clearly people can obtain precision training with or without an e collar, so what would make you choose one way over the other? Just the character of a particular dog, or other reasons?
Well nobody actually answered my question, but, reading the above it appears that what is being said is that you cannot get absolutely top competitive 'precision' training (in the opinions expressed here) WITHOUT the use of an e-collar - is that correct?
Is it the same kind of thing as using anabolic steroids 'to win' because all the other competitors are doing it?
I'll offer my opinion and address your question from my perspective. No, an E collar is not necessary to train a dog, it is an extremely versatile tool in the hands of a competent and talented trainer. Yes, you can obtain precision with and with out the use of an E collar. What is important is finding the right motivation and reward for the individual dog and laying an excellent foundation in a motivational way. Once this is achieved you move on to increase the level of difficulty in exercises and what is expected, then you move into proofing, then into polishing. Do you need an E collar to proof or polish, no you don't. Is it a tool that can be used for instant timing and communication with a dog? Yes it is and over great distances. Is it a tool that is employed by a skilled handler on low level stim and allows the handler to remain calm and in control, yes it is. Do experienced trainers rely on the E collar as a tool of last resort or just use it on a high setting? No, absolutely NOT! It is a tool that allows finesse and a tailored approach to meet the dogs training and maintain the drive and joy in the work of a dog. Is it a correction for disobedience? Yes, of course because compulsion is necessary in training a dog to a reliable level. Is compulsion always harsh and brutal, absolutely not. There are many ways to correct a dog and many negative responses from a handler to a dog. These negative responses can range from with holding a reward, to changes in voice and tone, to leash corrections with a flat, choke or prong collar, to low level stim and higher levels of stimulation with an E collar.
I do not know what level of training that you do with your dogs and what standards you have or expect from your dog. I work a Patrol K-9 and expect a certain level of performance every day, my dog is conditioned to the E collar, it has many practical applications for me and is very advantageous. All of the behaviors I expect from my dog are trained motivationally and understood before any physical corrections are ever employed. My dog is secure with the E collar and actually is much more sensitive to a prong collar correction than an E collar correction. Every dog is different, my last male (HOT SChH 3) would turn and nail you for a hard prong collar correction and responded fantastically to the E collar on the absolute lowest setting. My HOT SchH 3 female never used an E collar except for polishing, the leash and a collar was all that was ever needed to get nice precision. I'm trying to remember if she ever even wore an E collar in training. If she did it was extremely rare. I will say that training competitive Obedience is awesome and I respect anyone that gets out and works their dog in any venue. Please keep in mind when you add other disciplines beyond Obedience such as tracking and more importantly protection work and aggression control while the dog is in drive; things change. Maintaining a high level of control, drive, motivation and precision in all three phases requires finesse and better training methods. This is why some top trainers utilize an E collar. While I am working my dog is placed in some very stressful situations and the drives go off the chart and must be "capped." When we conduct a search warrant with our SWAT team and explosions go off simultaneously inside and outside of a residence it changes the tempo for the dog, an E collar is very effective for me in these situations where control is paramount, especially since the dog is often off lead. If I found the use of an E collar to damage my relationship with my dog (whom I Love dearly), cause him to be impacted negatively over years of working, or to be too harsh I would throw it away. Contrary to what is posted about the affects of the use of an E collar I have never seen that to be true when used correctly in over 18 years of using them. I can tell you that I have modified my use and refined my techniques as training has evolved and hopefully I keep up. I go to seminars every year, sometimes multiple times to see how the "top" trainers are working dogs and to keep abreast of new techniques, philosphy and methods.
I would say the steroid analogy is a little off base. I would use an analogy of the improvement in technology. I am a firearms instructor and recently replaced the sights on my pistol with Truglo Tritium / Fiber optic sights. These sights allow me to pick up targets faster when shooting and acquiring multiple targets. They are more visible in the day time and at night. Are they an advantage when competitively shooting at work against fellow Officers? Yes, probably they are. But I was able to shoot well with the factory night sights that came form Glock, but these sights offer me a little more speed and precision. If they are available to everyone and they enhance my performance then I am going to use them. I may have a slight advantage and if the other guys want the same small increase in speed and precision they can add the sights as well. That is the effect of an E collar on dog sports, top competitors see the better results and want to achieve even more precision with their dogs.
I am not encouraging anyone to use an E collar, quite the opposite! I have been using them for years and have gone to many seminars and seen how to properly condition the dog and properly use the collar. I have never said they were absolutely necessary or even needed for most dog owners. I use them because the results are great for me, but I understand the pros, cons and limitations. I have been researching there use for years and have a lot of practical experience with E collars. There is a ton of misconceptions with the use of E collars and more often than not they are misunderstood and misused. Although, I often find myself banging my head against the wall on threads like this it is important (IMO) to share a different perspective and factual information.
I hope that helps.
You said:
Anyway, I have never yet had need to train with an e collar, and my dogs have done fine in obedience and are well behaved in all situations. Clearly people can obtain precision training with or without an e collar, so what would make you choose one way over the other? Just the character of a particular dog, or other reasons?
Well nobody actually answered my question, but, reading the above it appears that what is being said is that you cannot get absolutely top competitive 'precision' training (in the opinions expressed here) WITHOUT the use of an e-collar - is that correct?
Is it the same kind of thing as using anabolic steroids 'to win' because all the other competitors are doing it?
I'll offer my opinion and address your question from my perspective. No, an E collar is not necessary to train a dog, it is an extremely versatile tool in the hands of a competent and talented trainer. Yes, you can obtain precision with and with out the use of an E collar. What is important is finding the right motivation and reward for the individual dog and laying an excellent foundation in a motivational way. Once this is achieved you move on to increase the level of difficulty in exercises and what is expected, then you move into proofing, then into polishing. Do you need an E collar to proof or polish, no you don't. Is it a tool that can be used for instant timing and communication with a dog? Yes it is and over great distances. Is it a tool that is employed by a skilled handler on low level stim and allows the handler to remain calm and in control, yes it is. Do experienced trainers rely on the E collar as a tool of last resort or just use it on a high setting? No, absolutely NOT! It is a tool that allows finesse and a tailored approach to meet the dogs training and maintain the drive and joy in the work of a dog. Is it a correction for disobedience? Yes, of course because compulsion is necessary in training a dog to a reliable level. Is compulsion always harsh and brutal, absolutely not. There are many ways to correct a dog and many negative responses from a handler to a dog. These negative responses can range from with holding a reward, to changes in voice and tone, to leash corrections with a flat, choke or prong collar, to low level stim and higher levels of stimulation with an E collar.
I do not know what level of training that you do with your dogs and what standards you have or expect from your dog. I work a Patrol K-9 and expect a certain level of performance every day, my dog is conditioned to the E collar, it has many practical applications for me and is very advantageous. All of the behaviors I expect from my dog are trained motivationally and understood before any physical corrections are ever employed. My dog is secure with the E collar and actually is much more sensitive to a prong collar correction than an E collar correction. Every dog is different, my last male (HOT SChH 3) would turn and nail you for a hard prong collar correction and responded fantastically to the E collar on the absolute lowest setting. My HOT SchH 3 female never used an E collar except for polishing, the leash and a collar was all that was ever needed to get nice precision. I'm trying to remember if she ever even wore an E collar in training. If she did it was extremely rare. I will say that training competitive Obedience is awesome and I respect anyone that gets out and works their dog in any venue. Please keep in mind when you add other disciplines beyond Obedience such as tracking and more importantly protection work and aggression control while the dog is in drive; things change. Maintaining a high level of control, drive, motivation and precision in all three phases requires finesse and better training methods. This is why some top trainers utilize an E collar. While I am working my dog is placed in some very stressful situations and the drives go off the chart and must be "capped." When we conduct a search warrant with our SWAT team and explosions go off simultaneously inside and outside of a residence it changes the tempo for the dog, an E collar is very effective for me in these situations where control is paramount, especially since the dog is often off lead. If I found the use of an E collar to damage my relationship with my dog (whom I Love dearly), cause him to be impacted negatively over years of working, or to be too harsh I would throw it away. Contrary to what is posted about the affects of the use of an E collar I have never seen that to be true when used correctly in over 18 years of using them. I can tell you that I have modified my use and refined my techniques as training has evolved and hopefully I keep up. I go to seminars every year, sometimes multiple times to see how the "top" trainers are working dogs and to keep abreast of new techniques, philosphy and methods.
I would say the steroid analogy is a little off base. I would use an analogy of the improvement in technology. I am a firearms instructor and recently replaced the sights on my pistol with Truglo Tritium / Fiber optic sights. These sights allow me to pick up targets faster when shooting and acquiring multiple targets. They are more visible in the day time and at night. Are they an advantage when competitively shooting at work against fellow Officers? Yes, probably they are. But I was able to shoot well with the factory night sights that came form Glock, but these sights offer me a little more speed and precision. If they are available to everyone and they enhance my performance then I am going to use them. I may have a slight advantage and if the other guys want the same small increase in speed and precision they can add the sights as well. That is the effect of an E collar on dog sports, top competitors see the better results and want to achieve even more precision with their dogs.
I am not encouraging anyone to use an E collar, quite the opposite! I have been using them for years and have gone to many seminars and seen how to properly condition the dog and properly use the collar. I have never said they were absolutely necessary or even needed for most dog owners. I use them because the results are great for me, but I understand the pros, cons and limitations. I have been researching there use for years and have a lot of practical experience with E collars. There is a ton of misconceptions with the use of E collars and more often than not they are misunderstood and misused. Although, I often find myself banging my head against the wall on threads like this it is important (IMO) to share a different perspective and factual information.
I hope that helps.
by Prager on 14 February 2013 - 16:02
Working dogs I was hoping for learning and teaching. But I am not going to stand to deception and false arguments against me or anybody for that matter.. If you want to actually see what I have said then about long distance training elsewhere on my forum then here it is. I am presenting it in it;s entirety. It was my response to an article .
QUOTE 1:
OK I have actually read all 32 points of the link. None of them addressed my points except one that dog does not get collar wise if collar is used properly. Properly was that you do not extend your hand when you use it. I have never seen such dog which would not be collar wise. Dogs are not stupid and by the nature will remember that collar is THE "thing" and that the stimulus is not ever present if the collar is not on his neck. Dog also figures out really quickly when the collar is not functioning when it is not turned on.
Let me ask you if I put the collar on you and use it by all rules of proper use of collar and then take it off. Will you notice? Of course! and so will the dog.
First let me say that if collar is used in non abusive way go ahead and do it. But below is my take why proper training w.o. e collar is more reliable.
As far as system, the e collar is controlling the dog better on long distance is true, but the collar must be on the dog's neck and be functioning. If you take the collar off then all bets are off too. However if I do not use collar but use choker , pinch, or nothing and positive/negative motivation I am forced to figure out way to make dog respond in long distance. This figuring out and quite lengthy approach then builds proper relationship between me and the dog. I'll explain. I have few approaches to do so. They all are based on fact that if the dog does not responds on long distance I will mark the behavior by "NO" and then "get" the dog and I personally give him negative correction. The problem is to "get" the dog if he does not listen and is in long distance from me. However there are ways to do so and they need some foundation work first. Eventually dog learns that it is me ( and I am always present when command is given where e collar may not be) who is the one in charge physically, personally, with my hands, with my voice, with my body posture , with my eyes, and ultimately my mind.. which I always have with me when I am commanding the dog.
One of my "tricks" for dog to come.
I always semi seriously say that dog needs to know 2 commands. They are attack and come. The "come" is the biggy . But for that I need other commands though thus other commands come before "come" in foundation work. Thus "Come" is a mother of most if not all obedience commands.
First I teach the dog to sit stay reliably. ( I do not worry too much about down stay since the dog who sit stay reliably will down stay even more reliably.) Me present or not. By slowly increasing distance and slowly decreasing my obvious presence. I say obvious because I'll see the dog in reflection of the window or am alerted to breaks of stay command by third party.
The dog has to sit stay 1/2 hr or more in cannon barrage before I proceed to next step. Increasing distance slowly. During all this training above simultaneously I have teach the dog to do down at my site and me facing to dog.
Next is Long distance down from sit me facing the dog, by voice and hand and then by voice only. +/- exercise. Result: When I say down from 100 meters dog must down 100 times out of 100 commands first in controlled environment and then with distractions present.
Then I do positive come for reward at first under controlled situation( no distraction). Dog comes and gets bite of toy or treat or pet or all above. Then I ad stationary distraction-toys in the path of thedog.
Hand signs and voice together and separate. Then I do down on recall. Short distance on leash ( 3 feet) first down 1/2 way. Increasing distance to 300 ft and removing leash.
Final distance can be as long as I want. 300 ft. Dog downs on recall 100% reliably.
Then I teach the dog to down while he has free time then when is chasing a toy.
Again increasing distance, distractions and so on.
Until 100% reliable.
Now back to come.
Here is a scenario.
Dog is 300 feet away from me and sniffing to something which is at that time very important to him/her. I call him to come. Dog ignores me. I then say "NO!" as a marker for not coming.Next is "Down - stay!" said in negative voice of NO. And again "No " with negative growling voice still for not coming. This low voice marks the original behavior of not coming and not of down. This must be done properly all in negative voice. Then I get to the dog and give him appropriate correction. Usually 4x snaps on collar or eventually later shake on the scarf of the skin on the neck if collar is not present. Then I step back about 15 feet and then call him come and give him his favorite reward and we are buddies again.
Little note here. I do No Down stay in distance because the dog realize after No that he did wrong and because submissive. Down, to the dog is submissive command. Dog does not mind to go down and stay in this scenario and because I trained it add nauseum with him for weeks before.
Comparison of results between e collar and classical approach described above:
This classical training is not as fast as training the dog same command as with e collar. This approach may take 4 -8 weeks. But it is more reliable when no equipment is present then e collar approach. Also the relationship between me and the dog is more clear and personableand that will transfer to other life situations and commands. Reliability without equipment around distractions on long distance is then superior to the training with e collar.
END OF QOTE 1
Next was next relevant post:
QUOTE 2
I was thinking about this thread. There is more to teaching come if you want to use this as a guidance to your training. I always say "come":
before feeding
during feeding
before and during prey play
Before protection training.
and when the dog is already coming.
To xxx's point.
I do agree that you could use the e collar after the dog went through by my described approach. Some may think it would be step to polishing the exercise. I agree that it would do so. I am not into precision training though. I want reliability based on simplicity and clarity. I am not trying to be stubborn, but I believe that if you use e collar after classical approach then you need to go periodically back to off collar - classical approach. If you do not then the reliability of the dog while w/o the collar will be diminishing.
END OF QUOTE 2 Prager Hans
QUOTE 1:
OK I have actually read all 32 points of the link. None of them addressed my points except one that dog does not get collar wise if collar is used properly. Properly was that you do not extend your hand when you use it. I have never seen such dog which would not be collar wise. Dogs are not stupid and by the nature will remember that collar is THE "thing" and that the stimulus is not ever present if the collar is not on his neck. Dog also figures out really quickly when the collar is not functioning when it is not turned on.
Let me ask you if I put the collar on you and use it by all rules of proper use of collar and then take it off. Will you notice? Of course! and so will the dog.
First let me say that if collar is used in non abusive way go ahead and do it. But below is my take why proper training w.o. e collar is more reliable.
As far as system, the e collar is controlling the dog better on long distance is true, but the collar must be on the dog's neck and be functioning. If you take the collar off then all bets are off too. However if I do not use collar but use choker , pinch, or nothing and positive/negative motivation I am forced to figure out way to make dog respond in long distance. This figuring out and quite lengthy approach then builds proper relationship between me and the dog. I'll explain. I have few approaches to do so. They all are based on fact that if the dog does not responds on long distance I will mark the behavior by "NO" and then "get" the dog and I personally give him negative correction. The problem is to "get" the dog if he does not listen and is in long distance from me. However there are ways to do so and they need some foundation work first. Eventually dog learns that it is me ( and I am always present when command is given where e collar may not be) who is the one in charge physically, personally, with my hands, with my voice, with my body posture , with my eyes, and ultimately my mind.. which I always have with me when I am commanding the dog.
One of my "tricks" for dog to come.
I always semi seriously say that dog needs to know 2 commands. They are attack and come. The "come" is the biggy . But for that I need other commands though thus other commands come before "come" in foundation work. Thus "Come" is a mother of most if not all obedience commands.
First I teach the dog to sit stay reliably. ( I do not worry too much about down stay since the dog who sit stay reliably will down stay even more reliably.) Me present or not. By slowly increasing distance and slowly decreasing my obvious presence. I say obvious because I'll see the dog in reflection of the window or am alerted to breaks of stay command by third party.
The dog has to sit stay 1/2 hr or more in cannon barrage before I proceed to next step. Increasing distance slowly. During all this training above simultaneously I have teach the dog to do down at my site and me facing to dog.
Next is Long distance down from sit me facing the dog, by voice and hand and then by voice only. +/- exercise. Result: When I say down from 100 meters dog must down 100 times out of 100 commands first in controlled environment and then with distractions present.
Then I do positive come for reward at first under controlled situation( no distraction). Dog comes and gets bite of toy or treat or pet or all above. Then I ad stationary distraction-toys in the path of thedog.
Hand signs and voice together and separate. Then I do down on recall. Short distance on leash ( 3 feet) first down 1/2 way. Increasing distance to 300 ft and removing leash.
Final distance can be as long as I want. 300 ft. Dog downs on recall 100% reliably.
Then I teach the dog to down while he has free time then when is chasing a toy.
Again increasing distance, distractions and so on.
Until 100% reliable.
Now back to come.
Here is a scenario.
Dog is 300 feet away from me and sniffing to something which is at that time very important to him/her. I call him to come. Dog ignores me. I then say "NO!" as a marker for not coming.Next is "Down - stay!" said in negative voice of NO. And again "No " with negative growling voice still for not coming. This low voice marks the original behavior of not coming and not of down. This must be done properly all in negative voice. Then I get to the dog and give him appropriate correction. Usually 4x snaps on collar or eventually later shake on the scarf of the skin on the neck if collar is not present. Then I step back about 15 feet and then call him come and give him his favorite reward and we are buddies again.
Little note here. I do No Down stay in distance because the dog realize after No that he did wrong and because submissive. Down, to the dog is submissive command. Dog does not mind to go down and stay in this scenario and because I trained it add nauseum with him for weeks before.
Comparison of results between e collar and classical approach described above:
This classical training is not as fast as training the dog same command as with e collar. This approach may take 4 -8 weeks. But it is more reliable when no equipment is present then e collar approach. Also the relationship between me and the dog is more clear and personableand that will transfer to other life situations and commands. Reliability without equipment around distractions on long distance is then superior to the training with e collar.
END OF QOTE 1
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QUOTE 2
I was thinking about this thread. There is more to teaching come if you want to use this as a guidance to your training. I always say "come":
before feeding
during feeding
before and during prey play
Before protection training.
and when the dog is already coming.
To xxx's point.
I do agree that you could use the e collar after the dog went through by my described approach. Some may think it would be step to polishing the exercise. I agree that it would do so. I am not into precision training though. I want reliability based on simplicity and clarity. I am not trying to be stubborn, but I believe that if you use e collar after classical approach then you need to go periodically back to off collar - classical approach. If you do not then the reliability of the dog while w/o the collar will be diminishing.
END OF QUOTE 2 Prager Hans
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