FCI standard vs the AKC standard - Page 6

you are splitting hairs.

The GSD came from germany, the only way an adult can be shown is IF it has a working trial title, and hip/elbow certs. After a certain age, it must also have a breed suvey.

FCI says "with working trial".........IMO, if the dog does the working trial (herding or IPO) and fails it would what would it prove? Just because the dog competes in a trial, it doens't proove itself until after it earns a title.

The reasons the new GSDCA committee is all the same reasons that the WDA has so many issues.

So you don't know either?

Doesn´t seem to be that easy, but Sitas is right about most of the points.

Sheepdogs with working trial = titled ( for Germany the German Shepherd has to be titled according to the rules of SV), but we can´t force other countries to follow our rules... it´s a free world...

That said AKC / FCI outside of Germany doesn´t really matter, it´s up to the single countries to make their own rules. I still don´t see the reason why an American club like GSDCA /USCA /WDA whatever can´t be member of AKC but insist on their own rules ( be it SV or not ).

There is an interesting FCI diagram showing the group1 / section1 breeds : http://www.fci.be/nomenclature.aspx according to their "motherlands".

Blitzen, I don´t know if this helps, but for us there is no question about the rules - no titling, health certs, show result = no breeding - simple and easy.

AKC is NOT a member of FCI, therefor they don't have to follow any FCI breed standards or breeding rules........

About a thirk of the sheepdogs/cattle dogs in the FCI list require a working trial from their respective countries.... Germany isn't the only one.

Yet another reason the new working committee is destine to fail....

If you talk with people from other countries that laugh out loud about ASL's, then they say........its just disgusting what America has done that breed...

Susie, yes, other FCI member kennel clubs tend to follow one version of the SV's tests or another. Some, the tests are more difficult.

SVV and ZVV, dog has to walk an elevated plank and at the higher levels, but crawl, and bark on command, this is in addition to the IPO requirements. Some countries do not allow stick hits. The important point is that each country that is a full member of FCI does have a trialing system that is similar to the SV's.

These countries tend mimic the rest of the breeding restrictions, hips/elbows, breed surveys etc...

 

I've had both and I like my disgusting ASL every bit as much as I liked my Sch 3 highly titled GSL.  Have you taken a look at some of the photos on on this database of GSLs?  Puppies out of titled parents with roaches so pronounced that you wonder how they can play. Males that are so over done with akita heads, so short in leg and down behind that you wonder how they ever scaled an "A" frame. I could go on but I won't.

I really wish every ASL wasn't  thought of as crap and every GSL though of as a treasure. It just ain't so. Titling hasn't done a whole lot for GSL's in spite of all the bravado. I wouldn't consider that the panacea for all the problems we see today in the breed.  This breed has become the laughing stock of the dog world, that includes both GSL's and ASL's for different reasons that we all can guess. We need to stop looking down our noses and dumping on the lines we don't like and start to look to where we are ALL heading.

Blitzen,

Never going to happen.  A breed test is just that.  It proves them worthy of breeding.

FCI has breed tests and requirements to ensure that the GSD remains a working dog.  Tha ASL does not have that and very few of the ASL's can work.

As a BREED, they are a mockery of what a GSD should be.  Sure it's possible to get a fluke ASL that can work, but who wants a breeding program where the norm is a failure and you have to hope for a fluke to be able to do what the breed is supposed to do.

You might wonder how some of the GSD's scaled a wall, played, etc but the fact is they did. The ASL's head is even more coarse in many instances and the fact is they can't work.  They can't grip, can't stand the stress of a stick hit, can't retrieve and in many instances can't even heel with the power and presence that a GSD can. 

The ASL breed standard is all about a trotting machine and that's what they have.  The GSD is supposed to be more than that and the FCI oriented owner/breeders get that.

The bottom line is that any where in the world a GSD is needed to do what a GSD was intended to do, the world goes to the WUSV dog (or a similar org. with proofs like KNPV), not GSDCA. GSDCA has no policy and never has to produce anything other than runners, pets and lawn ornaments.

If someone has a dog they feel ia a good representative then it is the result of a good breeder or an abberation, not the GSDCA.

Why anyone would take disagreement with GSDCA policy as an affront to their personal dog is a little beyond my understanding, but it doesn't change anything.

ASL heads are heavier than GSL's? Are you kidding me? I guess I have to say this again - not all  GSL's are good dogs either and some of those inferior dogs have IPO titles. With roached backs, froggy rears and Akita heads, they too could be referred to as mockeries of the breed and are on many dog boards - what's with these German Shepherds with the humped backs that can't walk right? Want me to copy you on what other breeders think of ALL GSD's. It's not good for any GSD breeder/owner. The AKC breed boards also have horrible comments about the ASL's - hock walkers, cripples, etc. Hard to defend against the truth, but there's a huge need to get real with this breed, take off the blinders, and take a good look at what is winning in all rings on both sides of the pond. I talk to a number of UKC GSD breeders and they too are always at odds with one another regarding the Alsatians vs "the other" GSD.

Working titles are a good thing? Of course they are. Should the GSDCA  support working dog trials? Of course and they were planning to when affiliated with the WDA. Will AKC work with the GSDCA to make a working title a  must in order to register a litter with them? Of course not. They bill themselves as a registry only and govern hundreds of breeds. If they required that from a GSD, the'd have to require that from every breed. The parent clubs would be given the responsibilty of designing a program to prove their breed could do what it was bred to do. Do you really think Americans would buy into that? Do you really want someone affiliated with the AKC or the GSDCA to tell you which dogs you can or can't breed or to judge their breed worthiness? Be careful what you wish for.

BTW my ASL can easily scale an A frame. I don't remember ever seeing a dog of any breed that couldn't, have you? 

uh yes, a hell of a bunch of dogs can't scale an A frame.  Can't retrieve over a hurdle.  Can your dog scale an A frame with a 1 kg dumbell in its mouth?  It's not just the climbing, its a retrieve.  I said the ASL heads are coarser.  and they are. 

BTW, I. don't. care. what. is. winning. in. the. show. ring.  The GSD is a WORKING dog.  I worry about the total dog.  The goal shouldn't be a V or a VA confomation dog.  It was a KKl1 dog.  Which included SG working dogs.  My SG working line Male Boomer (who was Kkl1) out trotted Spitzen V males in the show ring at 6 years of age.  Thats what the goal of a GSD is supposed to be.

An ASL line dog can never do this.  Even if they can title, the genetics aren't there for them to pass it on to the next generation.  The ASL is not what Stephanitz envisioned when he created the GSD.  If you care about the true GSD then you follow the standard put out by the Founder of the Breed.  If you don't like the direction the Founder is going, you work to change it within.  If you step out of the standard and create your own standard then it's not a GSD anymore, its an ASL. 
Change the name and do what you want to it.