royalties for titles - Page 6

Back on topic can it be shown that titles add monetary value to a breeding program?

Bob, the real problem is not the breed test in itself, it´s the people.

Owners/handlers trying to get a title, no matter how
Helpers trying to "help" the dog
Judges trying to be "best buddies"

Afterwards these dogs are sold to people who know nothing about working abilities, who are glad, if the "new breeding prospect" is calm, easy to handle, good friend with everybody.

I often wonder about people claiming how "nice", and "friendly", and "well socialized" their new working dog came out of the crate at the airport...that´s not my breed.
 

I deal mostly with good people, that are honest about their dogs.  It helps.  The exercises in an IPO trial are more than enough to test the character of the dog, providing the people doing it are honest.  I don't think a lot of trial conditions are an actual breed test, but the exercises still have all the merit in the world regarding dogs.  Again, provided those doing the assessing are honest.  

I know everything I need to know about a dog long before it ever goes to trial.  I only want dogs for myself from dogs i've known outside a trial.  Give me any mediocre or better dog and I'd bet there isn't a sport, breed test, competition, etc that we couldn't get thru.  I'd imagine if there were incentive to do so, many other trainers could also.  When you know the test before hand, it's easier to train for.  If you think changing things all over the place is going to change anything, i would disagree. Give me the exercises to train for and a mediocre or better dog and I'll pass them, I don't care what you want to call it.

If your solution is to keep everything super secret and have every single new competition a new inventive way to do something, fine, have fun.  I don't particularly need all the crazy fluff to see what is in a dog, I think half that stuff is for handlers that think that stuff is important :) and sooner or later your scenarios are going to be so crazy they will be prohibitive, and again, i don't see any need  for that anyway.  Honest people know what their dog is and so do breeders.  

Look at the typical modern internet breeder that inhabits the forums. spend their effort counting titles in the progeny of the dams and sires and want a piece of that to put in their litter announcements. the only hands on they do that does not involve a key board is leading chosen male to chosen female and let nature take over. this is the modern breeder. better described as facilitators of breeding combinations for sale purposes than people legitimately establishing a true distinct line of dogs within the breed.

What do they give back to the expensive effort of the people who made the sperm and ovaries they use saleable.


if there was an org i could donate to that benefitted the handlers i would donate. hell something as simple as a cash prize for winning a comp would ensure judging and training improved and would not disadvantage the funners from participating.

Hired dogsaid : Hunt is a dogs ability and desire to look for something you cant see, strictly speaking. I am sute everyone knows what facilitates it hans, no need to get technical or nit pick the obvious, yes? 

I agree with you no need to be snarky.  But no I do not think that  "everybody knows that". and

 You may think that I am being stupid about it , but I assure you inaccuracies like this are source of many problems in discussion and elsewhere. 

 

The problem with breed worthiness testing  via titles is that it is not targeting just  genetics - as it should-  but it also degenerated into competition.  Competition has different needs then breed worthiness.  In trials dogs flunk  for  miniscule mistakes and for mistakes which have nothing to do with  genetic.  In order to title a dog the owner needs to be involved in training several times a week for at least a 1 year. The use of such system  as tester for breed worthiness is ridiculous. That is a club of elite trainers instead. That is what spelled the end of PSA - extreme difficulty even on low levels which scared the base away and PSA is now just about dead and that is a shame.  

 The breed worthiness test needs to be such that it evaluates strictly genetic components of the dog's make up and does it  under a stress and tests broad spectrum of basic characteristics. . 

Now I am not against competing and in the higher level such system should  evaluate training skills of the trainer-dog team  too.  But on the lower levels it should show what the dog is made out of genetically  and it needs to be done preferably with minimum or better yet no training at all. 

IPO  as breed standard evaluator system is also wrong on different level too,.. that is it really only tests the dog's ability to be a sport competition dog and not versatile all around GSD with ability to perform in LE, pp, S&R, herding, and be family dog too.   As a matter of fact IPO testing prety much frowns on the type of dogs needed for these non sport disciplines ...like LE and PP and does very little if not nothing for detection testing. 

 There is a need for different standardized test other  then IPO. 

 Thus personally if I breed dogs,.. titles are OK and welcomed but they are just small part of over all picture the dog presents. And to pay royalties for something which is not doing enough and it could and which some may say is destroying the breed is not what I am interested to do. 

 JMO
 Prager Hans

I'd disagree that IPO can't be a test.  Seems to have been doing a pretty decent job since it seemed to have spawned generation after generation of working dog worldwide.  But when money and popularity are involved, I'd challange any other system that can be come up with to not fall victim to the same pitfalls.  History has more than enough examples across thousands of years that as soon as it's big enough, popular enough or enough money is involved, more an more find a way to cheat the system.

I'd agree to a point that there is too much training involved to be considered a "breed test", but what do you suggest?  I'd say if you've had 30 years of almost daily experience working and training dogs and seeing offspring and how they mature etc, I'd maybe trust you to make an evaluation quickly on a dog.  Most breeders breed nothing but how a dog looks and what its pedigree says it should be.  They don't know shit about their dogs.  It's why they never develop a line, constantly import new blood, never have consistent success, etc.  For anyone wanting to do things resembling the "right way", that year of training will at least give them a glimpse at what it takes to really know a dog.  

I'd say for anyone that is spending some time training a dog, and IPO 1 isn't that difficult.  OB?  pretty basic, if you don't have that, you don't have a trained dog.  Tracking?  find an article maybe and get to the end and you pass.  what's the BFD?  doesn't have to be pretty to pass.  Protection?  if your dog has any of the right drives and you've been training, you need a little control, a dog that bites and a dog that outs.  You'll lose points for extra commands and help etc, but you should still pass if you at least have those 3 things.

Beyond OB and tracking for bitework I think a prey-transition to pressure type bite, a transport scenario to show control, and a legitimate attack out of a blind type scenario are enough to effectively evaluate a dog.  IPO isn't too far off, assuming those involved are giving a legitimate test.

Back to the original topic...........

I strongly suggest that every breeder sell all their puppies with limited registration and the limitation is lifted for free only after the pup proves itsself - with passing hips/elobws, a working title and a show title.

 

I give cash back for titles that my puppies earn - novice rally/obedience/ BH 50$, higher level titles the get 100$. Just a way of showing appreciation for their hard work.

Now there's a really smart idea, Sitamom. There was no limited registration the last time I bred a litter so we had to use written contracts to try to prevent buyers from breeding dogs that weren't worthy.

i add to my contract that if the dog/bitch has been used for breeding before all the conditions have been met, the contract is null and void.... IE.. no hip/elbow/genetic guarantee and no chance of attaining full registration either.