FCI standard vs the AKC standard - Page 7

BTW If you were referring to me, ILMD, let's be clear that I don't like to hear ANY GSD referred to as "disgusting", be it mine or yours. I've already said I've owned both GSL's and ASL's and like them equally. I'll add to that "as companions and protectors". I don't have dogs because of what they can do for me, I have them for what they are....my partners in life. I want to see the entire breed be the best it can be.

I do understand that any GSD, probably any purebred dog that achieves greatness in it's respective breed, has made it to the podium  because of their breeder and trainer, not because of the rules of any organization.

Do you own any showlines, bzcz. I don't doubt for a moment the most working lines can out do a show  line any day of the week. If I didn't want to show a GSD in conformation and OB, I would own a workingline. Not really apples to apples to compare the 2.

I don't know if my ASL could retrieve a Sch dumbell oever an A frame. I've only worked her with a plastic dumbell and yes she can retrieve that over an A frame. Maybe not a heavier Sch dumbell. She came to me already a CH, 8 homes in 3 1/2 years because 7 other people considered her dispensable - too big, not enough room for her, too protective, etc. I never tried to work her in Sch. I stuck with venues I knew - AKC OB and trialed her for her AD and BH. My GSL did it many times and also earned a UD at 9 1/12 years and had every agility title offered at the time. I was still trialing her when she was 10  years old and she was still qualifying although she was slowing down due to cacer.

You must see different ASL's than I do, I have never seen a male with a coarser head than a German dog ..shrug?

Do I own a showline?  Years ago I had ASL that were crossed with GSD (Trommel dogs) and I titled a couple of them in SchH.  One I took to the USA SchH1 Nationals.  Nice dogs, great drives(one we even nicknamed Overdrive, couldn't turn that dog off) couldn't pass it on to the next generation at all.  They were a genetic dead end.  What's the point in that?  I've worked a bunch of showline dogs, been the back half helper for the NASS twice.  There are some showline dogs that can work.  They are also the goal.  The goal should be the middle, not the extremes.  That is the breed standard.  You will always have the extremes because of the nature of people and the way genetics work.  The FCI standard ensures that the gene pool stays diversified enough that the GSD will continue on as a working dog.  Without the standard, Germany's breeding program would deteriorate just like the ASL has.  Sure there would be breeders who would still do it correctly, but many more would not. 

Why can't your dog retrieve a heavier dumbbell?

The bottom line is the ASL is not what the founders envisioned.  Do you disagree with that statement?

I don't see how the FCI can require the woking / protection title for breeding. Maybe to get a certain award, but in an FCI conformation competion the dogs would be placed by stuctural qualities. Then, added awards can be sent out by the FCI to those that have certain requirements. It may vary from country to country?

Dogs don't need to bite or be a GSD to work. But, for a LEO I guess that is really something they might need to aprehend a combative suspect, or guard their back against violent offenders. Most of all it is the tracking/alerting they need. Most dogs no matter the breed will also go out to defend their family (People they live with) despite the breed, but they don't do it becaue they like to bite the way aprehension dogs do, they do it because they love the people that care for them and they are naturally protective of them. Enjoy this war dog video. I little sad to be at war, but it has some nice images of combat working dogs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3SIndRyWX4

It is a fable that most dogs will protect their owner.  Most will not.  There is a video on this forum where a k9 trainer went and tested 3 or 4 dogs by breaking into their home.  None of them gripped and only one even barked. 

That said a working dog can be anything from a service dog to a therapy dog to assisted living dog, to a medical alert dog, to a herding dog to a narc/bomb dog and the list goes on.

What keeps those traits and abilities alive and useful in the GSD is the FCI standard requiring a title and work.  The washouts, the ones who can't title, make awesome pets, and great therapy service dogs, but they shouldn't be bred. 

When you shoot for the stars and land on the moon it's still a hell of a view.  That's what breeding should be.

I didn't mean she can't retrieve a heavier dumbell, I meant I never asked her to retrieve one over the A frame. I don't know if she can or not. I have one she retrieves on the flat and over a hurdle, never tried her with it on the A frame. Had to back off on my dog training for health reasons, may never know. She might be as good as she will ever be. Her 3 year old son has earned a UDX and some agilty titles, he was sired by a German dog and she's 1/4 German sired by a Sch3. Maybe that makes a difference? I dunno.

Actually I don't think too many GSD showlines, regardless of their lines, are what the founder envisioned. I don't like most of the photos I see of the Va dogs to be honest and I see a lot of ASL's I don't like much either. I don't see either line saving the breed so to speak when most of the breeders are too kennel blind to see what they really have and do something about it. The genes may be there, but humans need to make the choices - selective breeding is a very powerful tool.

 I come from another working breed where most of those breeders are anxious to help one another achieve a good dog. Free or reduced stud fees, free puppies, co-ownerships that work for everyone.  They take the well meaning newbies under their wings and help them to learn about that breed. I don't often see that in this breed and I wonder why and how that benefits the breed. It's not a perfect world, is it?

I was at an AKC show Sunday, several of my friends that I met through IPO entered their dogs. The ASLs I saw were nice and lean, except for one, no overdone heads, fairly nice top lines. The things I didn't like- hocks and pasterns, (hocks on all them, pasterns on at least half of them), they appeared long bodied (to me), and some (not all) really faded looking coats. I do not know conformation, those are things that stood out to me. There was one bitch who appeared spooky, the rest seemed very comfortable. I cannot speak to the working ability of any of the ALSs, I will say that it sounded as if many people dabbled in other venues like OB and agility.

I'm not knocking anyone's preferences or trying to be hurtful, the people who brought their dogs were very gracious about all of my friends entering dogs, making?majors for both males and females. 
None of my friends had never handled in a show ring, so I'm sure they didn't present their dogs in the best way possible. I was told by an experienced person that the biggest problem was that when they ran their dogs around the ring, their dogs were pacing? not trotting. After the show we messed around and figured out that most of us need to move at a much faster speed in order to get our dogs trotting, whereas the ASL handlers didn't seem to have to move very fast to get their dogs doing it.

Overall it was a good experience and many are willing to try it again next year. I didn't enter my dog because he had an injured foot, but I plan to enter him next year. Everyone there was friendly and tried to be helpful to the point of giving a handling lesson to my friends just prior to the show.

Do I think my dog is more attractive and likely more capable? Yes, but they probably think my dog is too square, too slick coated, and not that attractive, too utilitarian looking, with an ugly gait. I'm not offended by that at all-

bzcz, all the people I've seen personally with videos showing untrained dogs not protecting, are selling A dogs, B, training. Even some trainers and famous breeders agree some titles are thanks to training, not genetics. :)

So, anyone have a translation for the accepted FCI work titles from country to country? That would actually help me.

I've only had  one experience myself with one of my GSD's "protecting" me. It was my first GSD, a ASL dam, a Sch 3 GSL sire, 126 lbs of pure kindness. I would  have bet everything I owned this dog would never have tried to protect me under any circumstance. He never met a stranger, was the favorite of every kid and adult in the neightborhood. Vets loved him because he was so easy to handle when he had chemo. Not a mean bone in his body.

One night when we were camping in a national forrest. I was walking him on lead around the site when a man walked into our side wielding a long knife. Dylan went ballistic, went after him snarling and I think he would have tried to take him donw had I not had him on a lead. Never happened again.

My current dog was returned because that owner was convinced she was too protective of her. She decided that when she and the dog were jogging early morning before sunrise and a strange man ran up on her heels and almost knocked her over. The dog grabbed him by his butt and didn't let go. He screamed - ouch...she bit me. I'm calling the cops. He didn't of course. I actually thought that was a very good reason to take the dog .

GSD Lineage, Look here on the PDB.  The video is there for all to see and nobody is selling anything.

Dogs do not protect on their own with no training.  Very popular, flawed fable.  Some do and they are the flukes we all wish we had but it is not the norm.

Anymore than it is the norm for a cat to take on a dog to protect his kid.  It happens (and I think that cat was AWESOME) but because it happened once, it would be foolish of me to think my cat is going to protect me from anything.