royalties for titles - Page 7

"...and which some may say is destroying the breed is not what I am interested to do. "
You were the one who said this

"That is a club of elite trainers instead. "
This might be true for the United States, but not for Europe, over here it´s daily routine, no big deal. Maybe people should start to think about training their dogs as normality, and not as a "big deal" .

Why don´t we just start to collect the kind of tests we want to see on a breed survey? We only need to go along with the requirements in forefield - right now the breed survey in SV is the LAST step

1. AD
2. BH
3. IPO/Herding/RH2
4. show rating
5. HD/ED
6. Breed survey

What´s better, a single breed survey INSTEAD of all the above, or a different breed survey, but still 1. - 5. ???

why would you nullify your own contract?  Seems counter productive.  If anything I'd execute the language of the contract and no litters would be registered

Z, our system is not perfect - our worst enemy is our knowledge . the "tests" are standardized, our handlers and helpers are very experienced, they know what to do, they know the ROUTINE - I´d love to dice this routine, at least at the breed survey.

Yesterday Zdog was talking about how useful a routine is and how good a standard test that everyone can train for is...I do NOT agree. ANYONE can train a dog when the routine is KNOWN and there are no surprises. ANYONE can condition a decent dog's nerves to a routine and when the helper is your friend and whose job is to help dogs obtain a title, things are easy.

When, on the other hand, you have no idea what your dog will need to face in the ring, when the judge has a really good imagination and comes up with ideas the morning of the trial, when the decoy's job is to try and fail your dog...that type of testing takes on a whole new meaning. If anyone thinks that walking into a ring with no idea what to expect as far as environmental stressors and a decoy who provides very little attraction to the dog is easy, try it sometime. As far as I am concerned, proving grounds like these are the true test of dogs nerves and dogs abilities.

Hired, a routine in itself is not the evil, during training you are able to learn a lot about your dog and yourself, and it´s the most effective way to comparize.

I wouldn´t change the BH ( it´s just a simple companion test for beginners )
I wouldn´t change AD ( don´t see the reason )
I´d like some changes in the IPO
No changes in the show ring ( although I´d like to teach some judges how to measure and make them reread the standard...)
HD/ED I´d wish to be harder = no breeding "noch zugelassen" "A3"

For me it´s about the breed survey - some creative ideas, some surprises, some stressors, a closer focus on standard, the helper being a helper for the judge, not for the dog ...That said I wouldn´t like to see a test for police candidates only, but for stable working dogs fitting into the German Shepherd dog standard without too much routine at that point.

My personal dreams...
 

Susie, these are NOT tests for police dog candidates, these are simply tests of the dog's overall character and nerves. In my opinion, when you cannot train for a routine, you need a dog that can handle "anything" It is also my opinion that dogs that can undergo these type of tests can also be tried out in a breeding program and hopefully produce themselves. 

Hired, we are not that far away from each other, for me as a German a IPO is NO breed test, it´s a step on the way to the breed survey, and this breed test should be changed to the better. We have to trial our dogs prior to the breed survey.

What are the rules in Belgium? Over here a FCI / VDH Malinois doesn´t need to trial, a breed survey only is good enough. Sure there are people titling their dogs, but it´s no requirement ( same with Dobermann, Boxer, Rottweiler...the split within these breeds is much deeper than within the German Shepherd breed ). And in case 4 out of 1000 dogs/year are titled only, titling can´t be a requirement, otherwise there would be no puppies in your country? The best tests don´t make sense if I am not forced to participate and pass.

I´m a novice in this kind of "sport", although I was a spectator on 2 or 3 trials years ago, just again, very impressing performances, I just try to understand.

You didn't get my point at all Hired.  I said the exercises in IPO were enough to serve as a good test.  And they are, provided the peole doing them are honest and they are administered as a test.  I also said the short comings are in that having a standard, people can know and train for them.  Over and over and over, they can condition a mediocre dog to look passable.  I think that is true for any standard you can come up with.

I also said, go ahead and make up scenarios on the spot.  They'll either get to such ridiculous levels it would be prohibitive  or they would get to be known and trained for if there was incentive to do so, like money and breeding requirements. If little old me can do it, i'm sure many talented trainers could to.

There is no set of scenarios that anybody is going to be able to standardize enough to be able to have any sorts of standards or similarities from one trial or test to the next and if you can't have any similarity or standard, then you have nothing to judge from other than saying, "trust me" this is what happened that day.

Unless you're talking about your OWN person tests, which are fine, but hardly something that could be used nationally.  and regardless, if you have trained your dog that's worth a shit, it needs to be somewhat obedient, bite and have an out.  Passing an IPO trial shouldn't be a problem.  

I hate to break it to you, but plenty of shitters pass in Ring too.  I've known great dogs that have blown ring exercises too, I'd trust them to save me any day too.  They're sports. You'll find out what type of dog you have thru training.

GsdStudent:

:You do not need a title on a dog to find out if he has fight drive and prey drive..The gsd or mal, obviously comes , or you would not be considering it, from a pretty high drive and good bloodline..no matter whose or where or what...THE dogs parent must have contributed something either with or without titles..FUNNY thing  is, when a person breeds a litter of pups in our breed, and they know who is looking for a pup for Police work or herding or protection , they let the party know...NO need to spend time and money titling... WHEN I bought my Dam and my sire, my mentor already has assured me, I would find many uses for my litters and to learn first. 

Hired dog or BOB , or SUSIE or me , all could take an 8 week old pup or even younger, and evaluate enought to hold that pup for another month or so and be sure, it was a good choice for several venues...NO title needed...now  then if we all wanted to put a title on it...it would be because we KNEW the dogs potential...and for our personal want to....

Reading a gsd is a manner of a talent or a perception of what knowledge and experience one gathers in our abilities we are already confident in...DO not need a title or a book to tell us what we see.

So then comes training...if dog has  not got it.....200 trainers would not be able to get much done with a title or a score to be top score or what all would consider worthiness

Moen makes good , excellent brands of faucets,   Delta makes good faucets, Home makes a fair faucet....Better Value makes a faucet  you can use but not worth time or trouble...  Get It?

The price determines which one you buy  and which one is gonna get the best end result...years of service...dogs are the same....You cannot put a gasket on a bad fasucet...and solve it for long...you cannot put tons of training on a dog with no get up and go minus fight, prey and food prey....and get much of a result for very long..

YR

Susie, please look up the NVBK page, they have all the info you want on there. 
 

Zdog, Of course you are right my friend...