cattle prod - Page 8

I have been watching this thread grow and grow, people come in and comment, fights start, people taking sides with some and putting others down, its been interesting, so, please allow me to add some things that I feel are missing...

Sarah, if you hire me to "paint your house" or "give you surgery", dont tell me how to roll my brush or handle my scalpel, I am the pro you are paying to do a job, let me  do it

If you are going to train at "this club", these are the tools we use and we expect everyone here to use them in order to achieve our goals of titling our dogs, if you dont like that, thats fine, you are free to leave, but, if you choose to stay, these are the rules.

That applies to every club out there and the tools can be anything from bungy ropes to leg sleeves to E collars or whatever. The point here is that when you "wear the brand", you abide by the "brand" rules. Now, if you have been to several clubs and you could not find what you wanted or were looking for, I would look inward and see what is wrong with me before I blamed anyone else. A lot of people love to come in these forums and talk about how they trained this dog and that dog and have seen dogs behave incredibly well in all types of distractions, but, the reality of this is that 98% of those dogs had Electric work done on them, especially those who are higher in drives then the average house dog.

Someone else said something about the old show dogs VS working dogs add nauseum, but, that would not have been a problem if you all kept the breed what it was meant to be, a working dog, thats it...forget side gaits, pasterns and ear sets and just look for sound temperaments, FIRST, working abilities, maybe then the show folks would not look down on the working crowd and the working crowd would not look down on the show folks.

I do not belong to any club, do not train for sport, I DO use an Electric collar daily and have no problems with correcting a dog that needs it. I do NOT and will NOT use a cattle prod on ANY dog to score 2 extra points, however, I will also NOT use a prong collar instead of an E collar as I feel the prong has more of a NEGATIVE impact on my relationship with my dog. As far as that Malinois shutting down, I believe it, some of them are weird, I know, hence the use of an E collar to correct the dog, no handler involvement, no shut downs. Everyone have a great day.

 

What's your breed, Hired Dog?

Thanks for all the respones about my experiences. Haz....it's not just me. In my region in New England, there is only one WDA club in the next state over- They haven't taken new members in a couple years as that club is all full with one breeder's dogs...who happens to be a Region Director or whatever. The 3 USCA clubs (I am a USCA member)near me will not take new members. If you don't believe me just check websites or call them. The one DVG club I tried.....same thing. I do not know if my area is much more competitive for IPO trials than the average population. I have only trained in my area. I, personally, honestly believe it is because they only accept people who will be "on the same page" in terms of culture , methods, and philosophy as one club trainer told me. He said..."I have my reputation on the line"....i assume meaning if we don't score a certain level he will be somehow be deemed a crappy trainer. I think the trainer should adjust to the dog and the goals of the owner. Some people don't want to trial. Or just trial at the club level like myself. I have no ambition to compete Regional or Nationally. So what. Why can't I just compete at club level and have fun?

I am not negative at all! In fact, I try my best to support and help anyway I can including volunteering at trials (even bringing a huge vat of hot cocoa on my own dime for competitors). My dog is solid and every helper has said she is an IPO dog and can do it. So, it's not me or my dog. But, I am not part of the inner circle (they are all buddies and facebook friends..IPO is not a big world); I don't want to use prong/e-collar/cattle prod or kick or punch my dog- all of which I have seen regularly; I don't swear like a sailor - even with women and children there. This stuff is just not acceptable to me. It's just not. I find IPO to be a very bizarre culture....unlike anything I have ever experienced and I have done obedience, rally, conformation showing, herding, agility classes, etc. It's just too bad as I really liked training and think my dog and I could have had success. Unfortunately, as you know, you CANNOT do IPO without a club.  Protection work is not something you can find around every corner. :-(

 

Hired Dog that attitude is just not right. That's not fair and not a good way to keep the sport going. Do it my way....and like it..or leave. You know, in a few years when IPO is gone and done don't come on here complaining......

 

But, please don't let me derail thread on the use of cattle prods.

Join an OB club, Smiley.

Sarah, these are facts, you cant dictate to someone how they will train at their own club simply because you dont like it.

Its also a fact that in order for a dog to get the finnesse, the "look" the sport demands, the control the dog must have and still look animated, E collars need to be used. Now, its also true that you do not have to use one, but, dont expect others to revamp their training programs simply because you dont agree with their tools of choice. Out of curioucity, what do you have against E collars?

Lastly Sarah, since I dont compete or train for sport, if IPO dies tomorrow, it will mean absolutely nothing to me, trophies and ribbons dont pay the bills.

Blitzen, its the Malinois, thank you for asking.

Hired Dog...I didn't ask anyone to train their dogs my way. I also didn't ask for them to revamp their training programs. I simply asked for them to respect how I train my dog. I think each dog is an individual and not all dogs should be forced to train the exact same way with the exact same methods. And...not everyone has the exact same training or competition goals. You embody the attitude I have faced-precisely- so I do not doubt you are heavily involved and invested in IPO or Protection work.....

 

 

You're welcome Hired Dog.

Start your own group and start a new culture.  I have to say I was new once too and I never experienced what you did.  I know there are assholes in this sport.  They are in every sport, it's not unique to IPO.  A friend of mine was run out of agility because she would tell her dog "no" or "ah" when it was wrong.  That wasn't acceptable in that crowd.  Cliques and cultures are everywhere.  I hardly think your experience is evident of the "culture" of an entire sport. 

I was new, I was told what to do by the people I was around, mostly because I didn't know a freaking thing and that can be dangerous at times.  I ended up doing things I do not agree with today, but I don't blame them either, they WERE trying to help.  But you know what happened?  I stuck with it. I watched videos, I read books, I trained with people, all sorts of people.  If I had an opportunity to train, I did.

The majority of my training was by myself.  Everyday, jumps, heeling, motion exercises, figuring out how to see what I did in training was affecting my  dog.  My timing and consistency got better.  I figured out that what I was taught earlier had exceptions and some of it, I just didn't know enough to understand either.  What i used to find myself correcting with a prong collar 10 times during every session turned into never.  Tracking, how my track last week was setting up my dog for the track in front of them today.  I had a lot of influences, I also had a lot of trial and error.  I figured out what kind of dog I wanted, then set my boundaries of what I thought was acceptable to reach those goals.  I have used electric, I'm not opposed to using it again completely, but I haven't used it in at least 7 years, probably closer to 10. Today, the majority of my trianing (outside of bitework) has no leash or collar at all.  

Not taking into account all the places I have trained, but regular training I've belonged to 3 "groups" and 3 clubs.  Never was anybody ever turned away because of their dog, where it came from or what it had inside.  Even the spooks were trained in a way they could be trained and have fun that was safe for everyone on and off the field.  Anybody that put that much time in helping out and showing up and willing to work, half the time we didn't even charge guest training fees after they showed that commitment, they were just made members.  Nobody was ever forced to use anything they didn't want to.  Acutally I take that back, I remember once a person was "forced" to use a collar in addition to their harness because they couldn't ever control their dog or its head with just the harness. and yes we became friends.  I have training friends all over, are people that spend that much time together not supposed to be friends?

In my last club a lot of people used ecollars, I didn't even use a leash and nobody asked me to leave or told me to strap on the electric.  They jerked their dogs around blinds on prong collars and I taught touch pads and a ball then paired it with the helper.  Some people actually changed the way they did it, but nobody told me I wasn't welcomed.  Sure some scoffed at the idea, but that's not unique to IPO.  Go ANYWHERE and do something different.  Let me know when you find that group that is completely accepting and on board from the start :)  People resiste change, they don't always like different.  It's a human thing, not an ipo thing.  

The only time I've ever seen someone told not to come back were those that knew it all already, and they could be 10 minutes in the sport or 30 years.  If you know it all, your dog better show it.  If after 2 years your dog still has nothing, it's obvious you don't know anything about training and if you're not willing to accept instruction, then you can leave.  That happens, why shouldn't it?  Does a club have to give all that time to someone that obviously doesn't want to learn?  The door swings both ways.

on the flip side, we've had people almost completely incapable of training dogs.  For some reason, they just weren't able to move well physically, some by developmental stuff, accidents,, just completely out of shape.  But they were there to work, every single week.  Their timing always sucked, they presented rewards like crap, they couldn't correct anything if they wanted to or tried, but they were consistent every single week and tried every single week, and their dogs progressed and everyone was happy.  

You don't have to start at the top, but generally anybody coming in telling everyone how good they are and how much they know, better be able to show or you tend to get shunned rather quickly.  That's not an IPO thing, that's a human thing.  The new guy at work that comes in and tells you how everything should be even though he was just lost his last job for running into the ground.  Or the parent on the sidelines telling everyone that will listen how the coach should be calling them game, though he doesn't know the difference between a slot, wideout or TE and how their formations and actions affect the defensive alignment.  or the person at agility that tells everyone how they should set up to run a course, though they've never had a double Q in their life?  Those people exist everywhere.  

So again, sorry you've had such a bad experience.  If it is that restrictive, then there must be others out there in the same boat you are in.  Start a group.  It doesn't even have to be a sanctioned club.  I'm in one right now.  We are mixed with ring and IPO and have members with varying degrees of success from multiple national championships to never stepping on anything than a club trial or training field.  It might not be pretty at first, you'll struggle, you might not have a helper right away.  get one and work on it.  You'll get there, nobody learns without screwing up a lot.  Occassionally someone falls in with a group that essentially trains the dog for them and they achieve success early, but what's the fun in that?  Most train their dogs because they have fun with their dogs and they like to see them learn things.  

anyway, best of luck to you.

All I will add is; trophies and ribbons are an absolute must have in order to pay the bills of big time kennels.
But a multi millionaire friend of mine from more than 3decades ago couldn't understand why I wanted to show his miniature horses in halter shows....he said, "you can't put ketchup on a ribbon." to him, if it didn't make money, don't invest in it. He would have found IPO a waste of time....spend mucho money for a title? Titles were, in his words, tools for fools used to impress the uninitiated.......He had a kennel of racing Greyhounds, was the first owner to syndicate a racing Greyhound stud dog, so he believed in genetics for success, not "tools".