BREEDER'S ADVICE PAKROS 2-3 IN-BREEDING - Page 1

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE QUALITY OF THE PUPS WILL BE IN THE FOLLOWING LINEBREEDING?

• 5 - 4............................................. in V1 (BSZS) Eros von der Luisenstraße
• 5 - 4............................................. in V Verena von Batu
• 5 - 4............................................. in VA1 (I) SGR Hobby vom Gletschertopf
• 4 - 3............................................. in VA1 Ursus von Batu
• 4 - 5............................................. in VA4 Odin vom Hirschel
• 5 - 5............................................. in VA2 Jango vom Fürstenberg
• 4 - 5............................................. in VA Beaury van de Huis Kirura
• 4 - 5............................................. in V Wasko d' Ulmental
• 3 - 4............................................. in VA1 Bax von der Luisenstraße
• 4 - 5............................................. in V Feli vom Ochsentor
• 3 - 4............................................. in VA1 Karma vom Ochsentor
• 2 - 3............................................. in VA4 Pakros d`Ulmental
• BOTH PARENTS ARE VERY PROMISING YOUNG PUPS WITH EXCELLENT BITEWORK AND TEMPERAMENT
• YOU CAN SEE BOTH PARENTS AT http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/para.utkoma?fadir=497836&modir=501590

The question for you is.... whats the motives behind wanting to breed these 2 dogs? What do they both have that will improve the breed? As far as I know of... neither dog are titled,nor OFA, unproven.

Please be honest when answering.

BOTH DOGS BELONG TO OUR TEAM. THE MALE IS AROUND 8 MONTHS OLD AND THE FEMALE IS 10 MONTHS OLD. THEY ARE VERY PROMISING YOUNG INDIVIDUALS AND WE INVITE SUGGESTIONS AND OR ADVICE FROM PEOPLE WHO MEAN WELL. AS WE DO NOT WANT TO DO ANYTHING STUPID WE WOULD LIKE TO LISTEN TO VIEWS FROM PEOPLE POSSIBLY MORE EXPERIENCED IN BREEDING THAN OURSELVES.

THIS IS THE HONEST  ANSWER YOU WERE LOOKING FOR!!

I think when they are older and have at least their hips and elbows certified their offspring would be nice. But they are just pups themselves right now and way to young to be bred.

If i were you I'll try researching on Pakros Koer report...see if there were any recommendations... So far as Vegas is concerned... he is great even if he is as outcross and is getting good in the breeding pen...Your 2-3 linebreeding is too close I think and you may need permission from S.V. for a breeding like this... HEED what the others say and DONT BREED for PROFIT... PAKROS is an improvement of his sire Sieger BAX , and VEGAS is a Wonder boy (according to fred lanting) You can wait also for what the Breed warden has to say about Pakros and Vegas progeny...But if you ask me.??? Vegas is a mirror of his sire but with a BROAD GENETIC POOL plus the amount of training he's getting outside of Germany... he should do well also on protection... just my two cents...Marci

You said “BOTH PARENTS ARE VERY PROMISING YOUNG PUPS WITH EXCELLENT BITEWORK AND TEMPERAMENT” Do you mind if you post up a video or two of both of these dogs doing bite work?

I think your confused by my question, “whats the motives behind wanting to breed these 2 dogs? ” which is probably the reason why you didn't answer it :) What are you wanting to improve by breeding these 2 dogs that are so closely related to each other? What are you trying to bring out?

I assume you live in the USA? If you really want to breed your female.. have you consider searching for a Proven stud that already proven himself as far as offsprings and achievements?

THANKS TO ALL THAT REPLIED

BRITTANY YOU ASSUME WRONG OUR KENNEL IS BASED IN CYPRUS EUROPE. WE HAVE VERY GOOD TIES WITH GERMAN BREEDERS AND AN EXTENSIVE BREEDING PROGRAM . OUR WEB-SITE WILL BE PUBLISHED SOON AND YOU CAN VISIT TO SEE ALL OUR DOGS AND A FEW VIDEOS. SORRY FOR NOT UNDERSTANDING YOUR QUESTION. YOU SEE MY MOTHER LANGUAGE IS GREEK. THE MOTIVE BEHIND THE PARTICULAR BREEDING IS PURELY SCIENTIFIC.IT PROBABLY WILL NEVER TAKE PLACE . IN THIS PART OF THE WORLD BREEDING IS ABOUT HAVING AS HIGH A QUALITY PUPS AS POSSIBLE AND NOT ABOUT MONEY. OUR TOP PUPS ARE NOT SOLD BUT SENT TO OUR TEAM CO-PARTNERS AND FRIENDS THROUGHOUT EUROPE.WE HAVE BEEN INVOLVED WITH THE BREED FOR QUITE SOME TIME NOW AND WE FOUND OUT THAT FRIENDSHIP AND HONEST CO-OPERATION WITH GOOD PEOPLE BRINGS RESULTS . I PROMISE TO SEND YOU OUR WEB SITE ADDRESS AS SOON AS IT IS READY.

CONCERNING THE MATING I THINK PAKROS AND VEGAS ARE THE BEST DOGS CURENTLY IN GERMANY FROM ALL ASPECTS. THE QUESTION IS IF A CLOSE IN-BREED ON THEIR GENETIC MATERIAL WOULD GIVE SUPER PUPS TO CARRY ON THEIR PARENTS QUALITY OR IF THE OPPOSITE WILL MOST PROBABLY HAPPEN. A LOT OF FEEDBACK I HAD WAS THAT MOST OF THE LITTER WOULD BE AVERAGE WITH ONE OR TWO PUPS BEING EXCELLENT. THE CARROT WOULD BE ONE SUPER MALE PUPPY , ISNT EVERY BREEDERS DREAM TO MAKE ONE SUCH PUP AT LEAST ONCE IN HIS LIFETIME?

Good luck on your dream ATHARTS... And yes you may be right about Pakros and Vegas...The guys on the board are just reminding you of an overall aspect in considering a GSD of True GSD Standards... The dogs are still young and I congratulate you for acquiring these good bloodlines... Just try to understand... One GSD maybe excellent in one aspect , say conformation, but he has to earn his titles and work to be considered a True GSD not by looks alone...I DONT CONSIDER SPORTING DOGS AS DOING WORK (its just the dogs career for the vanity of the owner) Same as a Show dog without any partaking of being UTILIZABLE... The GSD is a Working dog that is UTILIZABLE for his human master... 

And If you ask me as a breeder... I aim in not producing just one dog in a litter to fit the standard of the GSD ... Pakros and Vegas maybe good looking and better than his progenitors (I prefer Vegas because his genes are from a broader genetic pool) But look at their siblings...do they exhibit the same quality??? A good example of a good genetic pool will be from L-litter Wienerau, Q-litter arminius, Sieger Uran and his sister, Bernd and Bodo Lierberg, and massing of Palme Wildsteigerland as seen in Ursus... when you linebreed you only breed to MAINTAIN THE QUALITY of the ancestors and know the pros and cons of the output, and then outcross to IMPROVE and CORRECT the short-comings...

I think this article would somewhat help you also...

http://www.kristophgsd.com/articles_wienerau.htm

P.S. try not to post in ALL CAPS... they come too strong as if you too demanding... "Knowledge should run deep" and "try to go with the flow" ... There are many purists in this messageboard, to the [point of purist for lines] and ther are some who go in between..."They should change the term Working to UTILITARIAN purposes and dont consider SPORT breeding and Beauty breeding as a form of Work.." Though both can be shown... show your dogs performance to work...