wow, a training question! - Page 1

Since the board seems to be saturated with non-traing questions, I thought I would throw this out to the ace trainers. 

If you had a 4 month old pup that displays a resistance to the out, would you nip in the bud before it escalates, or would you wait until the dog is a bit older?

The breeder warned before recieving the pup that he was going to be tough in this area.

Working with him, I would give the out command and after slight resistance, if he outed I would give the re-bite command.  The pup quickly caught on that the game continues and he is rewarded for the out.  After a few times of this, he immediately started to reward himself without a command.  He comes back harder and more intense.

Just thought I would start a training thread and conversation.  Seems to be twice the amount of breeders on here than trainers.

Well, I'm a newbie to the sport and have two young dogs, one a little over a year and the other just turned six months and I've been told not to even worry about the out until they're further into training.  I do play with toys in the yard, I'll throw one and when they go to get it I'll pick up another.  When they come back I give them an out command and throw the other toy,  But it's just play and I'm not an experienced trainer so I'll wait to see what others have to say.  Good thread.

I would suggest building him up and worry about the "out"  when he is older.

IMO, dont let him re-bite as of yet, but start a different game after he outed. Sounds like he is a high drive pup. I have a 7mo girl like that, as more you push her away as harder she comes back at you. So you want to "channel" this energy into the right direction, avoiding any harsh corrections.

I would continue on the imprinting/drive work for a 100% good grip for now, letting him win the tug most of the time. Giving the out only from time to time. My girl will actual hit the floor now with her bumm and look at me for what I am up to next when I out her. I still do not let her re-bite as this is in my opinion far to rewarding at this age and will lead to inconsistency later on, meaning the dog might re-bite after the out w/o being provoked by the helper.

He is pretty young but if this is something that will be "hard" down the road,  then I would take Elkoor advise and when he outs start another game and reward that way instead of correcting.

Sparrow I too play the no conflict game with my puppies. takes a lot of the fighting/corrections out of the way.

Personally I would wait allot longer than 4 months. I did this with Baden, knowing his father was a shit and not into the conflict stuff, fight you all day and go right through the e. I go 90% motivation and have no problems. I was choking him off too young and started other issues that thankfully went away when I stopped taking things from him. He works much better with me, than for me.

Glad to see you back in the saddle Don.

The rules training without conflict state the dog is not allowed to initiate play ie: the game. Therefore after outing the dog should only be allowed to restart the game when given the release command by the handler. Out means out untill the handler restarts the game just as sit means sit untill released.

"After a few times of this, he immediately started to reward himself without a command.  He comes back harder and more intense".

Allowing the dog to reward himself by restarting without command is the problem. IMHO.

I train the "out" separate from bite/tug work.   I feel training it with tug/bite work is like trying to train your pup to "stay" with other dogs running around.  It is an obedience command like sit/down/heal/......

I start about the age of your pup.  I have a bucket of tennis balls and basically play a trade game.  He has one and I get a new one.  Now he wants the one I have because its more fun.  I give the out command repeatedly and as soon as he spits out the first he immediately gets the second.  Then I grab another one and repeat.  No stress on the pup as he is willingly giving up one ball for the other and is always successful.  I also work in hard eye contact into this play time.  Work my way up to "out" hard eye contact then new ball.

Then I work my way up to the tug.  "Out"" hard eye contact, then tug again.  Teaches attention, control, and out.

chkm8

I understand the game and the fact that the dog should not be rewarding himself.  That is why I brought it up.   I think you and the others have good ideas. 

The tennis balls are the same as multiple tugs.  You are trading a dead reward for a live reward.  

I just wanted to start a training conversation, so thank you!  The only problem with waiting until the dog is more mature, is as the drive and motivation increase through play and bitework, it may become more of a challenge.  With more intensity and drive, the dog will grow stronger and and the problem may intensify.

I never mentioned corrections.  This is all worked through motivation at this point. 

4pack

Only one foot in the stirrup at this point.

I understand your worries, I had the same ones. I'm not the strongest or most knowledgable handler. I kept imagining this nut case on the other end of the leash when he hit adulthood, then about 9/10 months something switched inside the dog and he started to get it. WE didn't strt outting him from the decoy until around 14 months and even my TD said he will be easy. Dogs smarter than I gave him credit for. Now little Dasti, Dagens sister...I'm not sure yet. I really havn't done much with her.