The Bottleneck of the Century - Only one bloodline left! - Page 16

"The hochtzuchtlinie breeders know they don't have to have a truly hard, well trained dogd and the leistungs breeders consider looks secondary."

You have to remember that to most workinline breeders (myself included), the showline "looks" are not appealing.  The workingline conformations are within standard, and their "form fits their function".  I can understand why a showline breeder would want to mix, but a workingline breeder doesn't need to.  I don't want heavily built front-ends, and dubious hind-ends in my breeding.  I prefer a more balanced "golden middle" in that respect.  Since the workinlines have what I want, and what I believe is more "correct", there's no need to look on the other side, and put working qualities at risk.  As said before, I'd rather breed ducthies first.

darylehret,

If an owner of a show line dog came to you and wanted to breed to one of your working line males in order to improve their breeding program, would you allow it? Keeping in mind the female they wanted to breed to your male was clearheaded, sound stable temperament, and had actually earned her titles.

I quit advertising stud service, because 99% of proposed matches were to somebody's pet.

This is a hypothetical question. I was hoping you would treat it as such.

Is there a software program that can give % of which foundation dogs (F1*) a particular dog carries?  I would think since the F1 pool is finite (perhaps 130 dogs?) it would be valuable info to know which F1 dogs carried some of the problems discussed here. I would also imagine this info could help determine which F1's could be added to help balanced these issues. Studying the breeds origins is important because each F1 was added into the breed for a reason and understanding each F1's contribution can do nothing but help one's breeding program. Because no F1 was without fault the real task is in how we put them together to produce the ultimate GSD - an intelligent working dog that is impressive to look at. 

- Susan

* I'm not sure I'm using F1 correctly. I mean the first dogs used to produce the 1st generation but now that I think about it I'm thinking F1 actually refers to the 1st generation. If this is the correct usage would the sire and dam of these 1st generation litters be F0?

I think Breed Mate could do all of that. I looked at their site, they offer some pedigree archives for breeds that are already downloaded, but the GSD isn't one of them. At any rate, have a look. It wouldn't be a huge job to input all the foundation dogs, identifying them is a much bigger challenge. This database would be a valuable reference  point assuming no one has messed with the pedigrees. It would be easier to generate a breed mate archive for Am lines since they've only been AKC approved since the 1920's I think. The early AKC stud books would list all the foundation dogs. The SV may also offer that sort of reference. What is the "Red Book"?

http://www.breedmate.com/

I don't know if the first generation would correctly be defined as F1 or F0.

Gustav, yes I remember V-Enno Anntreftal.  He was a top placing Bundessieger dog if I remember correctly and had near perfect conformation.  Like his father VA Frei von der Gugge, he was hard as nails and totaly filled with courage.  And he produced this in his sons.  What a blessing it must have been for you to have owned one of his legendary sons.  Many GSD folks today have no idea what this type of preferred working temperament is.  These dogs were filled with vitality and power, endless courage, georgeous, strong, well ligamented and dry, had good sidegait and could work all day long.  And some were incapable of experiencing any fear, while still calm and docile at the end of the day around family, friends, children and other pets.  The GSD breed needs to get back to this type of total GSD.  These dogs, Mutz, Frei and Enno could compete in any profung or zuchschau and place highly.  If one looks at the progeny that Mutz produced, his dominance for male type was impressive, and many of his progeny and grand progeny had much better conformation than him but also carried his terrific working temperament. 

Preston, you are right on point, I also owned a Marko son in the seventies. So you see it is hard for me to want to incorporate the "Beauty" of today's showlines when they not only bring disportionate genetic saturation of weak dogs, but I don't consider them as stucturally correct as this type we are discussing. That is one of the reason that the sch trial (like removal of 6 foot straight wall) has been dummied down; the type of physical structure that the highlines were moving to were not consistently capable of navigating without injury or unsuccessful attemps. This is after the six foot stright wall had been in Sch for decades. Yet other dog sports (knpv) and police training academies still use these things. The physical body of these dogs are not structurally strong for arduous work. I don't dislike showdogs, I just think the judges have taken them away from their origin.

Preston, you are right on point, I also owned a Marko son in the seventies. So you see it is hard for me to want to incorporate the "Beauty" of today's showlines when they not only bring disportionate genetic saturation of weak dogs, but I don't consider them as stucturally correct as this type we are discussing. That is one of the reason that the sch trial (like removal of 6 foot straight wall) has been dummied down; the type of physical structure that the highlines were moving to were not consistently capable of navigating without injury or unsuccessful attemps. This is after the six foot stright wall had been in Sch for decades. Yet other dog sports (knpv) and police training academies still use these things. The physical body of these dogs are not structurally strong for arduous work. I don't dislike showdogs, I just think the judges have taken them away from their origin.

I can understand that the showlines would need some new blood from the workinglines, but as mentioned, if showdogs are supposed to better the confirmation of the workinglines, then I don´t see what todays showlines has to offer. Todays workinglines are still looking as the dogs from the 60s, with a more straight back and not overly angulated, so what could the showlines possibly add?? I like a GSD that looks like the sire of my dog, straight back and build for work, is this wrong structure/conformation acording to the showpeople here?

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/432549.html