What should be expected of an ethical breeder? - Page 1

I am not trying to start an argument, nor slander a breeder.  I am hoping for honest reactions.

Until a week ago, I had two gsd's.  A beautiful 5 yo DDR bitch from Pam Lake (Von Hena-C) and a great 1 1/2 yo West German working male from Shelley Strohl (Frauengarten).

My 5 yo faded away with chronic kidney failure, dying on 12/23.  It was terrible.  It was heartbreaking.  I have never wept so much over the loss of a dog -- I admit it.

I mentioned it to the breeder of my alive and healthy male pup, Shelley Strohl, who, as always, was supportive and kind.  And it was NOT her breeding, keep in mind.

I let Pam Lake, the actual breeder of my dead female, know that the vet felt this was genetic.  As chronic kidney failure, if caught before symptoms, can be treated and keep dogs alive longer, I fully expected Pam to (1) offer condolences, (2) thank me for the information -- which an ethical breeder should, I think, welcome (3) let me know she would let the littermates of this one breeding know so they could get their dogs renal function checked.  I was not looking for any sort of compensation, I assure you.

Pam's reply was surprisingly curt: "Hi, Sorry to hear that.No issues with any other Hanna pups.Pam"

When I rewrote to say the littermates and their families may avert tragedy if they catch this earlier than did I, she wrote back: "Hi, There are 2 other sisters and they are fine.Pam."

I am pretty darn sure Shelley Strohl, the breeder of my male, would not reply this way!

Am I letting my pain and loss distort my view of this, or does this sort of reply seem odd, overly limited, and perhaps unethical to the rest of you?

Further, do you think I have an ongoing ethical obligation to try to find the littermates of the Gerry Dollnitztal x Hanna Felsenschloss breeding whelped March 2, 2003 and let them know to have their dogs' renal function checked out?

Thanks in advance.

Again, what I don't want to start is a thread of litanies about the worst breeders who ever lived, or the worst breeder stories ever told.  I just want to know if Von Hena-C is dealing with this according to your own view of how an ethical breeder of gsd's should.

If you were to lose your Frauengarten dog I would cry right along with you, that's for sure, then look into why it happened with the diligence such a tragedy demands. I'm just glad you have your big, strong boy to lean on in times of trouble. His Daddy has seen me cry lots of times, always sits on me and licks my tears away, then throws himself on his back and demands a belly-scratch. Never fails to help.

Take care Michael. You're in my prayers.

SS

I think she should be a lot more interested, you're right to be concerned.  I agree that she should be contacting the owners of the litter mates to advise them accordingly... that's really not much to expect!

Legally?  If she had the means to help prevent the demise of a litter mate and did nothing... I expect she'd be in the clear.  Morally?  She's obliged, she really is.

First of all, I am sorry for your loss. I lost several dogs this year, some mine and some who were rescues, and it is heart- wrenching when you loose a dog you love. That being said, the bad news is that the kidney failure may have nothing to do with any other dog in the litter or any other dog in that bloodline. A vet can say what he or she wants to, but there is no proof it was genetic and even if it was, it could be an isolated case. Just because one dog dies, say at age 8 of hemangiosarcoma, for example, does not mean I would immediately let every owner of every litter mate know to be on the lookout or have tests done etc.

I would absolutely want to know if one of the pups I have at the moment ends up dying early. But early for me is one to two years old.  I would want to know the supposed cause, but it must be carefullly and pathologically documented to be of any real use. And yes, given a clear etiology of an abnormal condition, I would be looking for signs in other littermates to see if they might be affected. I would be more sympathetic, of course. But that is me.

But again, knowing what I know about genetics, and health, I would not be ready to accept a statement made by the run of the mill vet that X condition was due to Y situation, including genetics. People, including vets, say things all the time and they don't know what the hell they are talking about. For example, there are MANY conditions, including infections that can remain latent, contaminants in food, etc., that might account for renal failure in a dog. 

The bottom line is I did not hear the conversation nor the tone of voice used, or was it all by email? In any case, I don't know the breeder in question. I can understand that she may have felt you wanted something, even if you did not. Also, it is difficult to know whether she felt she was being accused of knowing something and not passing it on. And frankly, what is the value of telling every owner of every litter mate, assuming she could contact them, that one of their siblings died of whatever? In my opinion, it is worth considering whether that is an unfair expectation and whether it would cause unnecessary and undue worry in the owners of the other litter mates.

The bottom line is that life is not fair and sometimes it throws us curves we do not want or anticipate. Some people are more empathic than others. The way Shelley does or does not respond may or may not be the "right" or only way to respond. In my opinion, it does not make her more "ethical" than the other breeder, but perhaps more sympathetic. I would tend to respond differently than you say did the other breeder, but based on what you have said, I am not sure she is way out of line. I do know, for other reasons, I would not buy a dog from that breeder, but that is for other reasons related to bloodlines, titles, conformation etc.

Again, I am sorry for your loss.

As a hobby breeder I have done it differently and I have done it the same.

The same is - Yes I have given quick replies. Sometimes it catches you off guard and it has to comput what was just said. If this is or was a line that was breed alot then there is much to be done and looked in to and your head starts pounding!  and you don't think right. But after a few hours you deal with it (gone though all your paper work to see how amny was sold, to whom and ect.. ) and get back on track. Then you think boy, that was rude and I need to go and talk with ____________ and let her I do care. Then I have to start making calls and informing everyone and seeing if anyone has problems.

And sometime you can think clearly and you respond right and everything goes well.

We are breeder that are humans . Put your self in her shoes how would you first respond? knowing that your beloved dogs just caused a sick puppy but also a heartbreak to a person, family. Would you say all the right things?

Please note I do not know this breeder or dealt with her but I have been in her shoes and yours.

EK

I am so sorry to hear of the loss of your freind.  It is never easy to lose a beloved dog, whether a genetic issue, accident or old age. 

I do not know a lot about genetic kidney issues.  There are a lot of problems that can negitively affect them, environment, urinary tract infections undetected, toxins.  It is now standard practice at my vets to do a urinalysis each year to check the kidney and liver functions to detect problems like this early and begin treatment with special diets.

I had a similar experience with my EPI male.  Looking for the same responses as you have and hoping that more care would be taken with future breedings as I beleive EPI is a genetic condition. 

it is a difficult choice for some breeders to alarm other owners of a potential issue that may never surface.  I beleive that they should, but what I beleive and what happens, is an altogether different thing.  There are a lot of unresonable people out there that could/would jump to conclusions.

I left it with the breeder, its their business, you did your best by reporting it.  Thats all you can really do.

Take care and many hugs to comfort you!

MVF
 I am sorry to hear of your loss. Chronic kidney failure is a genetic problem in the breed. I would hope any breeder would want to know and pass the information along to any sibling owners. This is one of the breeders highly recommended on this database to by from should make people think.

I too am sorry for your loss!  How heartbreaking to lose any friend.  Being in many different types of business myself, I can honestly advise that a phone call should be made- either you to Pam or her to you.  Just my opinion, but I feel email is improper to discuss any type of death, as well as any type of situation where feelings are involved.  Email is cold and non-expressive and while you may very well not get the response you wish for, you can only tell someone's true tone by their voice.  Good luck with everything.

I'm sorry for your loss. Losing a young dog is especially heartbreaking. I'm glad you have your boy to comfort you.

I'm assuming you emailed the breeder and got that curt response back. There could be a lot of reasons for it and there's no point in speculating about what she was thinking. If you did have definite medical proof that the cause was genetic (a specific genetic blood test result, for example), then you should share it with the breeder, perhaps over the phone or by sending a copy of the test results with a letter (and don't blame the breeder for it, take the tone that you are just letting her know.)  If it was just the vet's opinion that it was genetic with nothing to back up that opinion, then it was of course still a tragic occurrence but would naturally be of less concern to the breeder or the owners of the other pups in the litter.

I like to think that all breeders care what happens to the pups they breed, but I know that just isn't so in some cases. I'm not making a specific comment about anyone here, just a general comment.