Prices !!! - Page 8

Everyone seems to be making some good points. A lot of times the price goes hand in hand with the particular breeder and how well they are known and or how well their dogs are known. The problem with this is that if a breeder is pumping out a bunch of litters each year for a long time they are bound to have one or two puppies that excel. Sometimes its not even the dog but the person who buys it and their dedication in what ever venue they participate in. Last year I took in two rescues, both had temperament issues, both dogs came from the same breeder who is well known and I know very well. When I first met this person I thought she was totally dedicated to the breed. After a few years I realized it was about money with her and even though she was an enclyclopedia of knowledge and a very good bull- - - - artist she was a very sloppy breeder. But she gets top dollar for her puppies. So when it comes to priceing or trying to find the right puppy nothing substitutes proper research of not only the lines but the person who is breeding the dogs. I would rather buy from the person who does an occasional litter but does his homework then from someone just becuase they have a name that has been around for a long time. My personal opinion of course.

 sjbo659, you're absolutely right; sometimes it's just a numbers game. A breeder churns out enough pups and a couple are bound to end up in the right hands to make a name for the dog & breeder. I would rather put my money with the small, dedicated breeder who has a specific purpose in each breeding and can properly gauge temperament, which I'm finding is an art in itself, and apparently, not as important to many as it is to me. People seem to have an attitude that puppies are a gamble so they just grab any old pup and ship it off not really caring whether it's what the person ordered or not. I think this is unfair to not only the person but the PUPPY! 

This, imo, perpetuates the concept that all puppies are always a total crapshoot and not worth more than $xxxx, when in fact, people might see value a bit more if more breeders would strive to pair people with puppies correctly as well as make complementary matches between dogs and not just throw 2 dogs together and hope for the best. Of course there are no guarantees with a pup- but you can greatly improve the odds of a successful match if you do your homework before and after the breeding and really evaluate those pups properly. And no, I don't mean a "temperament test" at x number of days old so you can pat yourself on the back and assure your buyer you have accurately gauged temperament. I mean watch, really watch, how they interact w/each other and their environment for the several months they are with you. If you watch enough, you will see patterns starting at just a few days old that really don't  so much change as evolve. Once you're adept at this, I think you can make much better breeding and placing decisions, but only if you care to spend the time. You surely won't get rich breeding this way. 

No Jenn you won't get rich breeding that way, but you won't have to come up with a new sells pitch every time you have a new litter. Good dogs sell themselves, all a breeder has to do is make them available. If a person trys to hagle over the price chances are they are not the right person for the dog anyway. anytime I have purchased a dog I have evaluated the dog, and it's ancestors enough to know what the value of the dog would be to me. ( no one else). I wanted a pup from a particular female in Czech Rep. and knew the owners pretty well as I have another dog from the same line, But wanted a female from a cousin of the one I already have. It took almost 2 years to get her. They kept me adviced and corresponded about the stud they were going to use, asked my op. They know exactly what I intend to use her for. We together selected the pup as I had videos every week. In all this time the price was never discussed once. At the end of this they gave me the price and I sent them the money wire. Total price with shipping was 1900.00 eu. or 2600.00 usd. I would not take 5 times that amount for her and she's only 6 months old now. I was not just buying " A" pup, I was buying " THAT " pup. No regrets
Hank

Hank that is exactly the point I was making in an earlier post. Research is the best way to ensure you get the right dog. Price should always be a secondary consideration. Problem is there are so many price shoppers that sometimes you end up holding onto dogs for a longer period then you would like but thats ok too. Litters are sort of like borrowing money from a friend. Never lend it if your expecting to get it back. That way you don't lose a friend. I would keep an entire litter if I thought for a second I could not place them in the right place. I also would never sell to a price haggler. If they try to bring your price down they likely will cut corners on the dogs other needs as well.

 Interesting thread, many good posts.  I hear you, Jenni78.

So you've trained a few dogs, gained some experience & knowledge of the breed.  You've got the bug; you want to seriously produce some good working puppies.  You can't find a good proven bitch in the States cuz whoever got lucky enough to produce that ain't sellin', no way, no how. 

You shop in Europe.  If you are very lucky & connect with someone honest + knowledgeable you find your high scoring SchH III bitch with a solid pedigree (proven producers) for no less than 10k.  If she's good looking to boot, you pay much more.  If you're unlucky, naive & no connections you get the wrong bitch.  If you have integrity you start over. $$$

If you decide to raise your own brood bitch you may go through a few before you find one of the exceptional quality it takes to score well at SchH III & go on the National stage to prove your bitch.  You've gone to seminars, traveled long & far to get the right help, Kkl'd, traveled long & far to the competitions. $$$ 

Your bitch is now 5 yrs old. How many puppies will she produce?  Now you travel long & far to get to the right top stud.  Maybe you have to have a c-section & get 2 puppies. Maybe she's barren this time & you wait 6 mo to breed her again.  Maybe you get 7 puppies & 1 born dead & 1 with an undescended testicle.  You have a health guarantee on your puppies that you may have to honor 2 yrs from now.  You spend hours upon hours studying & interacting with your litter & communicating with prospective buyers & hosting puppy visitors.  You make videos to keep people up to date on their puppy. $$$

What is the fair price?  It's what the market bears,  supply & demand, what people will pay.  It's certainly not the actual cost of getting that litter on the ground & to the 8 wk mark.  The hobby breeder is a breed/sport aficionado acting out a labor of love; can't help him/herself.  The big kennel breeder may be making a living based on sheer #s & an established blood line whereby he's producing his own brood stock, not buying it.  But it's not a great living.

The most inexpensive part of owning an animal is the purchase price.  There are so many other costs.  Don't scare yourself by adding them up.  :0)

So Jenni with all this being said, from a breederrs point of view, what is the expected price range for a quality puppy 8-12 weeks old, with of course supply and demand being the driver of cost?

 Skidoo, good post. You're so right- 10k for a well-bred titled bitch who is ugly- more for a good looking one w/good structure/pigment and the better the temperament, the more they cost, if you can buy them at all. I had to buy mine young and unproven to get her at all. Had she had a litter I may never have been able to afford her.

James, I haven't a clue what showlines go for- never looked at them- but for a top quality pup I'd say no more than $1500-1800 (and let's not get into definitions of "quality"- I mean surveyed and titled stock, low zw's, superb temperament and excellent structure, looks, pigment...the whole ball of wax. I know some don't care about that in WL pups but I do and that's what I mean when I say "top quality"- they better have it all and come from a long line of dogs of their caliber).

 The older they get and the better prospects they are, the higher the price. When they're old enough to be prelim'd, they're worth that much more w/clear xrays. Not only are they less and less of a gamble as they get older, but if you're keeping them for a buyer and either starting them or just plain boarding them while the person makes payments, then that's money every day out of your pocket on someone else's dog (though I never think of them as someone else's, lol, and have never actually charged someone board). I do think that's perfectly fair and I probably should do it though. To me, the dedication someone shows in effort to obtain a particular pup means a lot more to me than the couple dollars a day it costs me to feed that pup while it's waiting to go home.

lol, Jenni I expect the same from any puppy I purchase. Your expectations on paper are not that unusual. With $1800 being the high end I expect the female/dam to have all the above stated but to be a SchIII not the min Sch! to get a breed survey.

I don't believe you were reading my post in full. I said from the begining $1000-1800 being my range. With $1800 being my high end. So i guess you were defending the low end? The posters who were arguing price were talking about pups 8-12 weeks costiong $2000 and more. This was stated several times.

End of my participation in this thread

LOL James the Sch title is only a formality not the measure of a dog. There no need to require a sch3 on a brood bitch other than to impress those who know no better.

And yeah....Jen's expectations are unusual. Otherwise we would have a much higher quality of GSD out there today.

This is exactly why I will stick to training and competing..and if my female is worth breeding I get one or two litters out of her so this line can continue!

Prices reflect my cost... all I get is a puppy for my kennel which I train and title myself so the expense is my gain and the litters pay for maybe the food? for a while, vet bills,....crap now I relized that I am not making any money! Depressed here.....


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