Working dog breeders now breeding show lines??? - Page 4

Chris, (The Gooner) You can have the hardest dog on the field but without some sound structure underneath to hold that hard heart, You have nothing, It's just like Quarter Horses, People like small "Pretty" feet on those show ring horses, But guess what by the time they are 4 to 6 years old can't even ride em, some have to be put down as they can no longer bear they're own weight. It makes me sick !!! No I don't think Confirmation and Drive are the only two things that should be bred for. I'll say this again, "The Total GSD" The complete package is what we are breeding for. Confirmation for correct structure, balance, and working logevity. Temperament for working ability, stability, and confidence. Drive for working partners and family guardians. I have some dogs that are hitting hard, working really nice, Our training directors love my dogs, And guess what they come in my house and are active members of our family ! very appropriate and manageable. The complete GSD can work all day and play all evening with the kids, Not live in a kennel until the next time they go onto the sch. field again, It's rediculous that anyone thinks that is an appropriate way to treat your dog, Yet to "harden" them off that is what is commonly done to the Working Line dog. I don't beleive you can have a dog without ALL the elements in place. Some of us can see that and are working toward getting that Total GSD back ! :-)

Actually I think most of us have our own personal ideal what a ideal GSD should be. If I am a policeman I want a dog that can be depended upon in very tough situations and that won't quit. It has to have the high drives,nerves and hardness along with the physical abilty to do the job. Looks don't matter nor does color. I want the good nose for tracking and the drives to do so. Many top sport people want the same thing to different degrees. You can compromise on drive and hardness and still title your dog but if you want to win in the show the conformation, color, coat and gait are absolutes you must have period. I had a excellent breeder of top showlines (VA) decribe the difference between the show and working lines very simply to me by saying the showlines will quit while the workinglines don't in a same situation.

Without some confirmation, correctness maybe I should say, the hardest working dog WILL QUIT when he can't move ! I am not denying that the working dogs mixed with Malanois or whatever are not harder than the show line, I am just stating that without some correctness the dog can have the best nose in the world, hit harder than any dog ever bred, and if his body is falling apart in 2-8 years, HE WILL QUIT ! Not trying to be argumenative or nasty at all, just trying to get back to basics on these dogs, The complete GSD was what the founder had in mind, work all day, be a family member at night, and always a guardian angel, to be trusted to be there when you need him/her and know that they were capable of completing the task at hand BOTH PHYSICALLY AND MENTALLY !!! Am I Wrong for thinking this way ? don't get me wrong eighther I have no problem with working line breeders, or Show line breeders, I just happen to be attempting to find the balance in the two. And I agree with you that we will all breed to suit our own needs and designs mine happens to be wanting to get back to what Stephenhaus had in mind, hope I spelled that right. It's just what is right for me does not mean I think everyone should be doing it, Working peoples stick to working lines, Show peoples stick to Show lines, They are all doing what they are doing very well that is Obvious. I just wanna be somewhere in the middle, It's what is right for me and my family, That's all. again not trying to be argumenative just offering my own observations, and understandings.

""""""Without some confirmation, correctness maybe I should say, the hardest working dog WILL QUIT when he can't move ! I am not denying that the working dogs mixed with Malanois or whatever are not harder than the show line, I am just stating that without some correctness the dog can have the best nose in the world, hit harder than any dog ever bred, and if his body is falling apart in 2-8 years, HE WILL QUIT ! Not trying to be argumenative or nasty at all, just trying to get back to basics on these dogs""""""" EchoMeadows, When I think about the Working vs Show topic I usually start with the idea that all the dogs are sound in the hips/elbows/joints/back etc etc. I also think about the National Level Competitor and the Sieger Show Level Competitor, not the local level dogs... So with that being said I have never failed an AD with any of my working dogs! Nor have I ever had a working dog Quit at anything I asked him/her to do!!!!I have a dog turning 10yrs old that everyone who meets him and watchs him work "yes he still comes and works at 9 1/2" thinks he is like 5yrs of age!! No Quiting or breaking down even with his KKL2 rating... I know I know, how can that be you're probably thinking??!!?? Seeing this thread is ""Working dog breeders now Breeding Showlines?? I will give you my input. I started with the showline dogs. I had some good show females to. I bred too some of the best as well. 5xVA Cash v Wildstieger Land, VA-1 Nicko vd Noriswand, VA-Zank v Trienzbachtal, VA-1 Cento vom Monopteros, 2x Universal Sieger Winner V-Ory vom Zollernblut and many others. But no matter what so called "working show dogs" (unsure how show people can even put those two words together?) I bred to, they were at best average in the temperament/nerve/drive departements. Oh I used to talk the same talk, the working dogs are way too much for the average person to handle, and promoted the show dogs to the end. this is a lovely temperamented dog and this dog will be a great companion for your children blah blah blah. This is what I was taught and was promoted to me in my humble GSD beginnings.. The problem is this is supposed to be a German Shepherd Dog not a Golden or a dog that is "ONLY" a good companion for the kids. It is a German Shepherd Dog for christ sakes it is supposed to be the dog that does everything the best. """""again not trying to be argumenative just offering my own observations, and understandings""""" Me Either!!! Best Regards, Dennis Johnson www.johnsonhaus.com

:: Pats Dennis on the back:: Well some people got to see the light Can we get a round of applause for Dennis :: entire audience gives a standing ovation :: {{ YAY DENNIS!!!! }} LOL

Echo, I like you really I do, but yor beating a dead horse. My KKL1 for life bitch is falling apart. How is that, tell me? Also my working line male is the one I let in with the kids. My showline is so touchy you can't clip her nails and keep your face. However a 3yr old can do a jacknife into my showlines ribcage and get licked in the face for it. My earlier statements on other posts about working line dogs being too much for most people to handle I take back. Once mature they are easy to handle but as a puppy I don't tell my working pups "no" for anything. They are allowed to get away with murder, jump on people, bite anything that moves, etc. Most people can't deal with that and want nothing to do with them at that stage in their life. However once the "I rule the world" attitude is there and I rein in control with OB, it all comes together. You then have a confident dog that knows what no means and can be told to platz when people come to the door.

4pack, dogs that take what kids can dish, (not condoned but at times unavoidable) That's what I'm talking about !!! Great dogs can do that. Thank You by the way, I like you too.

When I said "true" workinglines are too much for the average person it's not because they are unable but because they do not spend enough time training/working the dog so they have control when they get older. If my workingline female was not under my control now at 7 years she would be a nightmare to handle instead of the absolute joy she now is. I agree that most people need more of what we call showlines dogs with good average drives but as I stated earlier it is desireable to have the higher drives and hardness for workinglines and to me it goes without saying the dog must have the structure and physical ability to perform. You can over breed drive and hardness just like you can conformation. It pains me to see so many people seem to breed for color , I realize most people pick a pup based on it's looks and color.

Desert you are correct in that the "average pet buyer" who gets a working line pup is not so much incapable of handling it as unmotivated and not willing to invest the time to let the dog use up the energy. (Borrowing Echo's computer here as mine currently thinks I am satan) Personally I like the activity level of the working line dogs, My husband who favors show line dogs is driven crazy by the extra house activity. I guess a lot of it comes down to personality and what suits you. As to confirmation when Echo refers to confirmation perhaps to clarify she should say "correct structure" A G rated KKL2 is still "correct". It may not be the beauty queen but it is still correct according to the WRITTEN

Desert you are correct in that the "average pet buyer" who gets a working line pup is not so much incapable of handling it as unmotivated and not willing to invest the time to let the dog use up the energy. (Borrowing Echo's computer here as mine currently thinks I am satan) Personally I like the activity level of the working line dogs, My husband who favors show line dogs is driven crazy by the extra house activity. I guess a lot of it comes down to personality and what suits you. As to confirmation when Echo refers to confirmation perhaps to clarify she should say "correct structure" A G rated KKL2 is still "correct". It may not be the beauty queen but it is still correct according to the WRITTEN