i have a question how do u know a great breeder or a bad breeder - Page 10

No refund yet and that puppy still hasn't had the surgery, TH? Damn.....

I would like to add one thing to your advice about choosing a puppy. In addition to titling their dogs, great breeders also do every applicable health check and never use dogs that haven't had hip and elbow xrays or use dogs that can't pass those xray evaluations. 

 
Here is the "defective" puppy with the "disfigured" face before he left my home. 

Niesia stated "So it is ALL my fault!... My greatest apologies."

LOL No need to apologize! This your opinion and you are entitled as I am and is everyone else on this forum. This a just a discussion and there are obviously a number of viewpoints and opinions. I'm still having a tough time comparing puppies with TVs, but that is ok. I understand your point...somewhat. As Kitkat stated, even when you buy a car or appliance that is defective the manufacturer will spend the money to either repair it or give you a new one. Yes, if the item must be replaced typically the original must be returned, but the difference is that sending back a TV has no emotional consequences for the seller, buyer or the appliance. Returning a puppy  can have significant emotional consequences for all involved. 

That said, all breeders are entitled to do as they wish, but I personally would not buy a pup from a breeder who required a defective pup to be returned before replacing it (as I ignorantly did 20+ years ago). Let's face it, the average puppy buyer will not be willing to return their pup and I believe that may be the main reason a breeder will put that clause in the contract.

I still think that comparing dogs and appliances is a false analogy. Although you may say that a puppy and an appliance share the characteristic of being merchandise, they do not share other, very important characteristics that should influence or at least be considered when making business decisions about either one. A microwave can have replacement parts, therefore this should be included in a warranty or contract. A puppy cannot receive replacement parts. Are you still going to include that in a contract? They are both merchandise, and that is something that would appear in the contracts or warranties for a lot of merchandise. It is fine to make any sort of analogy you want, regardless of whether you mean for it to be stretched to its logical conclusion...until it starts to affect how you actually do business.

One of my "microwaves" came back defective, it will not turn the table. So I refunded half of the money purchase and they decided to keep the microwave since it was such a nice kitchen addition; it still warmed up the food and was a useful family ?tool?. My microwaves even half price are keep able...


How do you like that?

Starrchar, I can't understand how you and others believe that ALL breeders who have "that clause in the contract" are out to scam the general population. The post I made about an endless supply of puppies after the first purchase was originally meant as sarcasm. But you have changed my mind.. Now that post is meant literally. Breeders, except puppy mills, do not usually have an endless supply of puppies for every one who insists on "I wanna keep this one, but you owe me another one for what ever reason I choose, or else give me my money back and I'm still entitled to keep the puppy for what ever reason I name". Not ALL BUYERS are ethical.

"Not ALL BUYERS are ethical." -- very true.

I see both sides of the issue. There are buyers who
want a free ride, and sellers who just want the $.

Buyers need to read the breeders contract if they have one,
and make sure they understand and agree to every term 
that is listed. Breeders need to make sure if they have a 
contract it clearly states what they will/won't do etc.

It's not unreasonable to ask a buyer for proof from a min.
of one vet prior to discussing a 'replacement' or 'refund' etc.
It's not even unreasonable for the seller to ask for a second
opinion. But, once the buyer jumps through the sellers hoops, 
then they should get their refund/replacement etc. ASAP.
Both sides need to stick to the contract, not ask for special
treatment after the fact.  

For the potential buyer, once again, read and reread the contract. 
Any and all concerns need to be addressed before you sign, before
you hand over a dime. Sellers, outline what you expect/want from
the buyer if an issue arises, don't make things up as you go along.

Or, do what we do, buy the puppy from the breeding we want,
and thats it. If it works, super, if it doesn't? Well, thats how it goes.
The plus to our choice is, the puppy is ours, no special conditions.
To some, the downside may be no 'contract/guarantee'. 

Do some basic math. The average buyer has a puppy shipped.
Dog is now 6+ mos old, and a problem arises. Say the breeder
will require the puppy to be sent back, that shipping is on the
buyers dime. So, once you deduct shipping/crate/health cert.
fees, how much of a refund are you going to actually get?
Factor in the vet bills to diagnose the problem too. 
A replacement puppy? Well, you will pay shipping on THAT
puppy too. 

Once you do the math, (unless it's one of the $3500+ showline pups),
it's usually not worth the cost to send the pup back to get your 'refund'
or 'replacement'.  If we have a problem with the pup we buy? We let 
the breeder know as a courtesy, then, we either keep the pup, or find
a suitable home for him etc, and start the search again.
We accept the chances you take with buying a puppy, but we also
don't enter into a purchase under the presumption the seller is
providing us with anything but healthy puppy of good nerve and
temperment. We simply don't "do" contracts/guarantees etc.
 
If you are in the dog world long enough, you will end up with some
sort of health issue with a pup, it's just the odds. 

Good points well said, wd.

When people ignore facts and focus only on the emotional perspective - you can argue those points till the end of time.
 
Starrchar, as you wrote, your entire argument is based on your "emotional consequences". When you signed that contract it means you accepted it as it was written.
 
Maybe I have been ineffective in my ability to communicate, but I am of the opinion that when you signed the contract, paid money, accepted the 'product', that animal became merchandise for you and for the seller.
 
My last word on the subject of the contract you entered into with seller is - show it to your lawyer and respect his professional opinion.

GSDPack offered a very smart and effective compromise/solution. But it was at his discretion. The seller or the buyer cannot demand anything outside the scope of the contract.