i have a question how do u know a great breeder or a bad breeder - Page 5

Jenni, I bought a WL pup many years ago for a companion and for sport. The pup had severe dysplasia- one elbow and both hips. The breeder said if I gave the pup back he would "try to make things right". I refused to give the pup back because I was attached to him and I knew the breeder would have hm euthanized. I thought at least I should've gotten some of my money back. I spent $1000 on the puppy and $4500 on the surgeries. I ended up with a dog that was never sound. I really felt scammed by the breeder. I think that most people want what they pay for and a puppy buyer wants a healthy dog that can perform the job (whatever that may be- companion, sport, therapy, etc.) the dog was purchased for. I absolutely don't think a pup should be "thrown away" like an object and it is something I would NEVER think of doing, BUT I think the breeder has an obligation to make things right.

You're a good owner with a heart. You're the kind of person the breeders who don't offer a replacement w/out returning the dog are intending to scam. I cannot STAND those breeders who want the dog back in order to offer a replacement. I think refunds (even partial, depending on circumstances) are an easy way to make it right when someone can't take on another dog because they are loyal to the dog they have. A breeder whose heart is in the right place will never insist a dog be returned. What are they going to do with it anyway???

I believe the statements in the beginning of this thread were a warning that if you do everything right, you are still not guaranteed they will go right. These statements were not given as an excuse for bad breeding just good advice to someone new to puppy buying. Some breeders misrepresent themselves and give potential buyers false hopes that with a well bred dog nothing can go wrong. We are dealing with animals and even in the best of breedings there is a possibility of genetically or environmentally caused health problems. Some of what separates good breeders from bad is trying to avoid these problems in the first place, and if they do happen to honor their contracts. Some breeders will not ask for the puppy back and will give you a replacement pup.

"A breeder who's heart is in the right place will never insist a dog be returned." ..... That depends on the circumstances , don't you think? What if it would be for the sake of the dog?

In my sale contracts I ask for puppy back before giving another puppy or any monetary refund. I also state that it is at my discretion to allow the puppy to remain with the buyer. It never happened to me and I would probably didn't ask for the puppy back if I trusted the 'case'. Fellow breeders that have been doing it for a long time complain a lot about 'guarantee users' that claim that the puppy is 'flawed' and requesting refund or another puppy. Later on, the breeders find out that the puppy was OK and they are out another puppy or cash - Main reason why such clause exists. Main reason why breeders insist on official OFA rating before accepting claim of HD or other documented genetic issues. Main reasons why breeders reserve a right to a second veterinary opinion...
 
I've been a witness of a lady claiming that the dog she purchased was 'genetically flawed' and it had to be 'bad breeding' as it became stranger aggressive and she wanted a replacement pup. She only forgot to mention that she kept that pup alone in an outdoor kennel from the age of 8 wks to 8 months without any socialization and malnourished him... Should that breeder give her another puppy to 'take care of'?... The breeder insisted on taking the puppy back before refunding her money. After 5 weeks of training the pup was re-homed with no 'aggression issues'. Obedience training, socialization, taking dog for a walk on a leash (for the first time in his life), bringing him back to health and a right owner - it was all that it took to take care of his 'genetic flaw'.
 

I still think a Guarantee should be a Guarantee, or don't have one. The things that "should"require a Replacement pup would be Genetic Defects. HD,ED,DM,EPI etc.,should give a replacement pup, No if ands or buts about it , and, if the buyer wants to keep the dog, by all means Let them keep their pet IF THEY LOVE THEM. The Temperment aspect is something else.you know by what the problem is in Temperment if it was genetics, or owner - buyer created. That depending on circumstances and contracts regulates replacement or refund. I can't always buy a dog back, but I CAN AND WILL, Always TAKE a dog back . I don't think anyone would want to replace a pup that was neglected in the first place.

Niesia, you are correct. According to law, a refund is not a refund if money is given without return of what was purchased ( dog, car, box fan, horse). As for giving a second puppy, most people want the same gender as replaced dog. What happens when the first male starts fighting with the second male ? Or the fights between two females? Most people keep their dogs in the home and it is very common for mistakes to happen so that fights occur. People who are emotional about cute puppies don't have the forethought to take conflicts into consideration. It all depends on the experience, capability, and knowledge of the buyer as to whether they can keep the first pup. Or if they get a second pup at all, like the situation Niesia spoke to. Sometimes it's better to give money instead of a pup. A thread was on here already about heroics in vet bills. A breeder isn't scamming if they offered a replacement and was refused. Sometimes it's difficult to make decisions without being overwhelmed by emotion. A buyer who chooses not to accept a replacement and instead decides to spend thousands on vet bills cannot blame the breeder.

I got my pup at 3 1/2  months of age. I did everything right re: diet, exercise, etc. At 4 1/2 months I noticed he wasn't moving right. I took him to the vet and he had severe dysplasia- he barely had any hip sockets left. I found out later that most of the litter died- don't know any other details. I see getting a pup or dog as a committment for its lifetime and not something to return when defective. I have a hard time understanding why that kind of committment should be penalized by a breeder unless he/she wants the pup back to euthanize it and pretend it never happened. I would not expect the breeder to pay for the surgery, but at least give me my money back.  Joanro, I don't blame the breeder of my pup for producing a defective pup- it happens. I still think this breeder could've done something. Breeders like this perpetuate the throw away attitude in buyers IMO. In order to get New puppy I had to throw away the first one. Well, that just doesn't sit well with me.     

Kitka3478 - Guarantee is a guarantee. If you buy a TV set and it's faulty, does the store let you keep it and mail you a check or send you a new one without asking for you to return the old one? It being a living creature makes it very difficult, but the same principle applies.
 
Starrchar, my heart goes out to everybody who has had the misfortune to get a pup that isn't well. Everybody, who buys a puppy wants him to turn out perfect. From what you wrote it still looks like your expectation was to keep the 'product' and get your money back. Did you not know going in, that getting your money back required returning the puppy? If you chose to keep the 'product', don't blame the breeder for not getting your money back.
 
I see an attitude on this forum that breeders should be responsible for everything that owners decide to do with the pup. When things become emotional buyers don't see the breeder's side of the story (the contract that the buyer and breeder entered into). Choices made by the owner after that, are beyond the breeder's control. Nobody wants to talk or even think about the fact that it is sometimes necessary (and in the best interest of the animal) to euthanize an unwell puppy. I have seen situations where it made an owner feel better about himself to spend thousands of $ on a dog that would have been better off euthanized.
 
This particular owner was trying to convince himself and others that the dog was better off going through all those surgeries and therapies. He was even bragging about how much he spent on this dog's hips: "I've spent $14,000 on the experimental stem cell surgeries (University lab), that didn't really help." (+ all the meds, hip surgery, etc.). I feel bad for the dog, but I would have been more impressed by the owner if he had spent that money donating it to a local shelter in the name of his dog.  I know, many will say - how dare you say such thing. But I look at this poor dog, that has to think twice before taking a step (I have never seen that dog trot or run) - and the owner says - I did everything I could and he's fine. Is he blind not to see the pain in that dogs eyes?

Jenni, did you ever give TH her money back, like you said you would? You do have the pup, if I recall. Nice of you to use your emotions to defeat the emotions of a devastated buyer when they discover a debilitating genetic defect in their new puppy. You really should just state you do not give money back, period, in your contracts, instead of doing all these acrobatics with words. IMHO