stud fees - Page 5

Misty, I do not follow your argument or the logic behind it. You had agreed to give the stud owner the pick pup in lieu of stud fee. One such pup sold for $1000 and now you have a problem with the value you had originally agreed to. See, you agreed on a value (pick pup), not a set fee ($x) at the onset. I can understand why the stud dog owner is upset with the outcome now. You did not have to pay anything upfront which you would have had to with another stud, which I am sure was very convenient to you at the time. In his mind, the pup and fee were always the same. Now you are disagreeing about a few measly dollars. Your friendship apparently is not worth very much to either of you. $800 vs. $1000...? Let say there were 5 pups in that litter. That works out to plus/minus $40 per pup calculated on the difference. Regardless of that - you are argueing over 200 bucks! With a friend! And are delaying registration matters for a couple of hundred bucks. None of any of this is even worth the argument. File under 'lessons learned and do better next time'. Some options you did have, but did not exercise would have been: 1) Ok, you don't want the pick pup anymore, well then you can go ahead and sell it. 2) Or you want me to sell it for you? No problem. 3) You want me to sell it for you. Ok, but because that takes up my time and effort and the pup may have to stay here a bit longer than planned I will deduct 20 or 30% of the price your pup fetches as a selling fee. If you think that is unreasonable, we can go back to option 1, on the basis that we had an agreement initially and that is what we will stick to then. Your friend probably already knew he was moving when he announced his change of plans and that was probably the reason why he declined the pup. Friends do not argue over a couple if hundred bucks, especially that had already been agreed on. If you had given him the pick pup as originally planned, the "fee"or whatever amount you would have been out of by selling one less pick pup would have come to at least $1000 anyways.

Agar, could not agree with you more on the worth of a dog or a fee. I am surprised how little value a lot of you place on your dogs, and also the dogs of other people. The performance of a single day or the opinion of a single judge does not determine a stud fee. V20something today, top V tomorrow, or vice versa. Top SchH scores today and no score tomorrow. Is there less value in someone laboring away for 4 years to put 'just' a SchH1 on a dog because of lack of training infrastructure and experience? But he stuck with it. Or is there more value in having 10 titles put on a dog in 10 months including taking it to the Worlds, just because the dog happens to be owned by a very gifted trainer and handler? To each owner the dog is worth the same! Their effort is worth the same. To them anyways. Is there more value in the training of a dog that goes low V or high V at a Sieger show, even though the preparation and involvement and the cost was the same? One persons opinion that stands in the middle of the ring on one day of that dogs lifetime and an occasion that will probably not repeat itselft, or rarely. How many times will owners take a dog to a Sieger Show? Or a major trial? Few enough. And only if they are really into it. Most times these big events are too far, wrong time, not enough time for training or preparation, dog not in shape, maybe was injured, out of coat, and so on. Dogs are cut down galore on this board without any consideration for the owners and their efforts. Titles and shows are just mere blips in the dogs lives. Top events are blips among these blips. And if someone imported a titled dog and a SchH1 was all he could afford then to him the dog has as much value as the person that can afford to import a VA or SchH Nationals contender. Kougar, in North America price of a pup is common fee for stud service, but somehow the GSD fees do not even come close to that. People bicker and argue about a few measly bucks. They don't want to pay what is customary for a stud fee, but they have no problems charging what is customary for their pups. On top of that use the "quality" of that stud as their main argument for the value they put on these pups. They also use that stud in their marketing to generate interest in potential buyers. Because lets be frank here, people usually do not ask about the dam first and what she has done. Most buyers have not even heard about the breeder til they saw an ad for pups because most breeders also happen to be a mere blip in the big GSD world. Breeders rely heavily on the stud, very heavily. If he has no titles, then he has pedigree. Or he has drive, or a good bite. Or whatever other qualities that drew the bitches owner to consider him in the first place. No stud dog owner seeks out bitches owners and say 'you must use this dog and only this dog and you must use him now!'. Your argument about the trials and tribulations of breeding and birthing and raising pups is absolutely ludicrous. Stud owner does not get a bonus for producing that top dog that goes VA or compets at the SchH Nationals, or for an extra large litter. Nor is the breeding forced on the bitches owner. Their choice, with all that comes with it, including puppy poop, losses, a few vet bills, and if things go well a nice litter of 9 live pups that sold for $2500 each, or even $1500 each. Not bad for a hobby. Staying up a few nights and doing a few chores that give back so much more than you could possibly put in? Its nothing! Its everything. Its wonderful. Worth far more than any stud fee out there could possibly be. Don't like the stud fee, don't go there!

I have used stud dogs of much better quality for example Yasko Farbenspiel and only had to pay a stud fee of 1200.00. The stud I used and Yasko aren't even in the same category. If he knew that he was moving then he must have known that most likely he didn't want to take a pup with him. So by telling me that he wanted pick pup wasn't being honest. I would have had no problem paying him right when the dogs were bred had he wanted a stud fee and not a puppy, but like I said before to me his dog isn't worth the 1000.00 stud fee he wants for his dog. Had he not wanted a pup we then would have talked and decided on what I thought he should get for a stud fee and what he thought he should get for a stud fee. I can tell you that I wouldn't have bred my dog to his dog in the first place had he insisted upon 1000.00 stud fee then. Especially when I took my time and money to get his dogs export pedigree, registered with the AKC, DNA'd, etc... I've never had to pay a stud fee where the stud owner asks me how much I am going to sell the puppies for then demands he get that much money also. Granted I haven't had many litters but still never done that. Seeing as how I have already sold a pup for full registration I would have paid him just about whatever he wanted to get him to sign the papers since I gave the buyers my word that their puppy would be registered. Like I also said before it isn't all his fault because I am the one who wanted to use his dog for stud, but had I known then what I know now I wouldn't have done it. If he had a problem he should have talked to me about it instead of making his mother do his dirty work. He also gave me his word that the stud fee would be 800.00 no problem then demands 1000.00 or no papers. I guess some peoples word means more then others. Mysti

No DH - it may have been that way years ago - but no one here sells pups for the price of stud fee any more! I paid $1500 for a pup, stud fee was $600 - I know that because I bred to same dog 3 years later. I do not see that an unknown dog with minimal credentials - no matter what the pedigree - is worth a $1000 stud fee - the pups from dogs with no credentials do not bring $1500. I get emails and phone calls from people wiht males offering stud service as many many many Schh3 males here and few people with schh, kkl females breed to outside males at all!! Proven females - ie those who have produced titled dogs are not so common here, and few people want a pup to work whose sire is not known! What is stud fee of Ellute? Of Eros [E400- this I know for sure] - a 2x WUSV winner! Of Tim Abfur? These dogs are not standing for $1000 or E800 are they? It is so much easier to get to a top stud in Europe, and the fees are E350- 500!!! I bet Tom z PS is not the equivalent of US 1000! If those dogs were here, perhaps THEY THEMSELVES would be attractive with a $1000 stud fee - LOL The arguement I was responding to was the perspective of profit - that the bitch owner gets more money from a litter and the stud owner wanted a bigger amount on **THAT** basis...but the stud owner is not taking the risk or doing the work so a stud fee should be reasonable market value looking at animals of like quality and credentials...I agree - don't like the stud fee, go elsewhere - the the BSP/National winner or well known dog for less stud fee! There have been many nice working dogs here standing for reasonable stud fees who were good producers of titled progeny in Europe. In dogs, as in horses, fees are based on what ACCOMPLISHMENTS the stud has in his chosen field or what his PROGENY accomplish - a horse like Secretariat was $75,000 at first - a few years later you could breed to a horse who set a sales record and never unraced for $1500....when he did not produce top quality, Secretariat's fee dropped significantly.

It's a market economy. If a stud owner is not booking breedings at 1200 they might drop it to make it more affordable. Likewise if a dog is in strong demand the owner can name their price and get it. That being said, conscientious breeders do not shop for low price on a stud fee. Having done ones research and choosing a stud for a particular breeding has nothing to do with price. There are only two pertinent questions: is the stud producing quality, and is this stud consistent with my current breeding goals. Fees, travel, and other concerns can either be dealt with or they can not. However, breeding choices are about breeding only. Mysti, if the stud is not worth 1000, I do not see why the world needs another litter sired by an unspectacular dog. If you are just trying to maximize your value it might backfire as you have seen with registration complications. Bob-O, the point I was making was that being related to an excellent dog does not breed excellence, but your point regarding the less known dogs is equally important. BestWishes, Jonah

D.H., you deserve a standing ovation and a big wet kiss from my "unknown dog". Now if you will excuse me I must address ignorance and stupidity when it deems necessary and come to my dogs defense because evidently I am Kougar's new little "target". So Kougar you kick opened the door with your little inuendo's and made enough phone calls across the US to trash my dog and me to enough people (that you never imagined would fill me in)and I've been waiting for the oppourtunity to give you back what you got long coming from a whole lot of people. For the rest of you...I apologize in advance that you have to subject yourself to reading this but when someone makes an attack then it's fair game to defend yourself. Kougar, Just who do you think you are to go around trashing everyone's dogs??? You are an idiot! Plain and simple. The things that you write are just as off the wall. Do you ever read what you post?? For starters let me just say this much...before you go trashing what other people own and what other people breed and train perhaps you should think about what you own, produce and title. If you think MY dog is an "unknown dog", then you have several, not just one. If you are such a top notch experienced breeder and experienced trainer then why is it you have never produced not one titled dog in all your own breedings??? Little FYI, I hardly think Tom is and unknown dog and neither were any of his sons and daughters. So if my dog is unknown to you it's because he's only been in the US for 6 freakin weeks. You boast about your SCH III dog but yet it's the only dog from what I understand that is worth 2 nickles and THAT dog came from the very person you trash mouth every chance you get. Hmmmmm, I see the irony now. Since the day you found out my dog came into the area you have been on a freakin war path to put him and me down every chance you get to whoever will listen. Sounds to me the only reason you're so ingrossed in my dog and what I do is because A. you know he's not junk and B. guess you're a little intimidated by the unknown newbie and her newbie Czech dog??? Now I may be new to the dog world and I may not know much yet about breedings and training but I sure know a lot about people and you lady are TOXIC. I come here for knowledge from those who know more than me. Perhaps you should do the same. I don't come here to have some "horse whisper" trash my dog or the goals I set to achieve with him. Hope you know more about horses than dogs. Now I am gonna comment on a few statements you made just for the sole purpose of all our entertainment because in all actuality I need not prove or explain myself to you or anyone to justify the quality of my dog.

Part II (Kougar) You directed your comments based on what I posted, therefore you were addressing ME so now I am addressing YOU. You state a "SCHI import won't have females lined up unless the owners are selling pups out of the newspaper on Sunday"...how stupid does that sound....do you REALLY think anyone that has something worth breeding to is gonna pay $1,000 stud fee to sell pups in the paper? Now IF the breeder elected to go that route...who am I to say where they should market their pups THAT's not my business. Then you go on to say "people in the breed aren't gonna be seriously interested to breed and knowledgeably to an "unknown dog"...let's get one thing straight-Agar is NOT an "unknown dog", he's already had litters before I bought him for starters, and anyone that knows anything about these animals and the bloodlines knows he is by far not an "unknown dog". Secondly, you keep hammering on the fact he is only an SVVI...lady I've only had him for 6 freakin weeks, I bought him with that title and not because that was the basis to my decission to buy him either. And he may be a SVVI but I can guarantee you this much my SVVI won't run away from the blind and refuse to come back like your outstanding SCH III did at the nationals. So I guess you're not the world's greatest handler/trainer/ breeder and anything else you try to portray yourself to be.

Part III (Kougar) You stated "more than likely there are a few dozen of Agar's 1/2 brother's wirh more accomplishmemnts"...well, I hope so that'll just make this "unknown dog" even more valuable to someone's breeding program if his brother's and half brother's are producing well. Oh and by the way...if his 1/2 brother's are doing better with accomplishments the owner's probably had them more than 6 WEEKS. Now if you wanna come talk some trash come a year from now then we can continue this at that time cause Lady I don't sing it I bring it and so does my dog. So just give him a little time and I assure you he will make your SCH III that runs from the blind look just as stupid as his owner. You contine to say how it amazes you that people and I assume you referred to me, go buy a dog and instantly become breeders and experts expecting to make tons of money w/out ever training or trialing....I didn't go buy a dog to become a breeder, nor is that my lifelong dream of giving up my very successful corporation to decide that I'm gonna feed 4 kids and support a household on a stud dog. Please! And in the event I acquired a nice imported bitch and decided to do a breeding or two that is MY business not yours and I hardly think 1 bitch and 1 male makes anyone some big time breeder. Retard! And as far as training goes...well I never claimed to be an expert at anything, in fact I think I stated the contrary all along by saying I am totally new to this and learning and unfortunately I have learned for about morons than I have the breed.

AgarPhranicniStraze1 Your SVV 1 dog is only three years old how well can he be known? With one litter on the ground out of Corida Mapes? Three pups? WOW! You cant even spell Pohranicni straze right. Oh well, I guess this makes you an expert! If I were you, I would sit back, learn and listen to people who actually know what they are talking about!

Part IV It's not about money for me cause guess what...I DON'T NEED to make $$ off my dog. That's not what I have him for, bought him for, or goals I have for him. And this is a little food for though for ya...did you ever think that maybe the reason your pups never move on to get titles is because you keep using $200.00 stud dogs??? I wouldn't let my dog kiss you for $200.00; that's an insult. But I guess that's what you like to do is insult and critisise people. Well I got just one more thing to say to you...you've made more enemies than friends on these websites and this time you picked the wrong one to add to a part of your list. I'm NOT the one and YES I know EXACTLY who I am addressing but let me just say this...I'd be careful who you go around trashing cause one of these days someone's gonna slap a lawsuit on your ass and maybe that will wake you up. As far as you and I go, we have NOTHING EVER to say to one another and I'd appreciate it if you keep my name and my dogs name out of your mouth cause if I hear 1 more time you are trashing me I PROMISE you I will cause you more grief than you can shake a stick at. Now what I have told you is probably something many have wanted to say for a long time but guess what I had the BALLS to address it cause I aint got a dime in this little escapade you have going on in your head with breeding, titling whatever...this is something I started to do because I ENJOY it, I LIKE it, I like meeting good knowledgeable people with intelligent things to talk about; not some wacked out wanna be Breeder of the Year or wanna be World Competitor. So let's agree that now we have established we do not like each other and leave it at that. Little advice...pick up that Sunday Paper you talked about and look for a JOB, maybe you need to direct some positive energy into that instead of worrying what I'm doing.