Newbie ? on Sieger - Page 2

Mosemancr, this is very good question for a newbie. Popular opinion places the split on the Martin brothers and their devoted followers in Germany. There was a time when there was one type of GSD that could work and have correct confirmation. The modern BSZS (showline) has a pass/fail system in their bite work. More dogs should fail this test but pass. One year a judged failed alot of dogs (rightfully so) at a BSZS and needed security to escort him to his car. Show line GSD's is big money. Pups gong for 3K a piece, stud fees in excess of 1k, Va dogs selling for 20k +. I figure the show line folks think why change things if we are getting paid. The show line folks don't like sables or black dogs in their competitions. I put an AD on a black female and the Judge (show line) had difficulty reading the dogs tattoo. The Judge commented, "this is the problem with the black dogs". There is no difference in the pigment inside my black dogs ear and my black and tan female. Good luck in your quest. Kyle

Mosemancr, I think that you know and realize more than for that you give yourself credit, and there are some good replies here. The Sieger show of that most of us speak is purely a conformation show. There is a breif courage test applied to every dog who is contending for a VA, V, or SG award, but the main topic is conformation. Beauty compared to a written standard that is interpreted by the judging staff as they see fit if you will. The other things are the quality movement (beauty in motion) and the possible presentation of excellent progeny from several different dams so it can be seen how well the contender produces and/or "improves" the puppies from different mothers whose conformation may be equal to or slightly less than that of the contending males. Why are sables or blacks not usually presented at such a show? Usually because they have no chance of winning anything regardless of how exceptional they are. Again, it is a conformation show and in the GSD Sieger world today that means that only red/black or tan/black saddled dogs with a certain physical appearance stand a chance. Being human, the judges have their personal standards for conformation and exercise their personal preferences and prejudices, both good and bad. I would say that a person who is relatively new to the GSD Sieger world can attend a show and be really confused by what they see there. I have often heard the statement "But, I can't tell who's who-they all look alike." And for new eyes that is a very correct observation as the show is a true conformation show. All of the contenders must essentially look alike, as if being cut from a sheet of red/black dough with a wonderful cookie cutter. Those of us who have looked at many dogs and watched them move can tell who's who, but to new eyes it can be confusing. While some of us handily forget our past, at one (1) time we were all newbies. Here's an example. Two (2)-time BSZS VA-1 Yasko Farbenspiel-love him or hate him, is a very nice male. Since the Yasko is the dog that the S.V. judges obviously liked very much a few years ago any serious contenders in the future shows have to present a dog who you might say looks, moves, and produces at least identical to Yasko. Regardless of what the written standard says, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and the judges are human just like the rest of us. That is what I like about the Universal Sieger designation. The dog does not have to be beautiful by a particular judge's ideals, but he must be correct. He does not have to be red/black or tan/black, and will be a serious contender regardless of his colouration scheme as long as he is in the standard. The world has one (1) F.C.I. breed standard that covers all of the GSD's. Inside that standard are the lines who produce the conformation champions, the lines who produce the hard-core working champions, the lines who produce some mix of both, and the lines that produce companions and pets. Bred by genetic selection for specific purposes. Athletes vs. beauty contestants vs. intellectuals vs. normal if you will. We dream of one (1) perfect type of dog who has the conformation beauty, the trainability, the working ability, a hard civil drive that can be easily switched on and off, and a love of humans that render it to be a wonderful family companion. The GSD of Utopia and legend who passes ALL standards and rises above all prejudices. Those dogs are out there, but they are very rare and even harder to reproduce consistently. Bob-O

The way of the GSD is going the way of many other sport or working breeds. How many nice looking Labs are out there that can't hunt? When was the last time anybody saw a Poodle retrieve a duck, out of ice cold water? Just look how focused people are on their own looks. Now it is the dogs we are conforming to our "likes" rather than what works or is best. Pretty girls get farther in life with their looks, maybe pretty dogs do too? Which dogs go for the most? Showlines every time. Which one can do more than look pretty? Not that VA1 on the podium studing to every bitch on the planet. Gee I wonder how the Gene pools got so narrow? If I see another Ursus Batu or Ursus son litter advertised, I am going to throw up.

I think the problem, not just with the GSD but with all sporting breeds is how many of us actually need a dog with good working ability. How many Lab owners are shooting people who need a dog to retrieve, how many people need a GSD that has the drives required to make it an outstanding police or schutzhund dog. I would say less than 5% of owners need this, the rest require a well behaved family pet which looks pretty. Because of this the working ability will always be bred out of the dogs, high drive dogs whether GSD or springer spaniels will require working to keep them occupied and will not be content to spend the majority of their time in front of the fire. Is this a bad thing? I woud love to see a golden middle however this dog would never please anyone, as the working owner would critizise the dog working ability and the dogs drive would still be too high for the pet owner who wants the dog to lay in front of the fire all day. The fact is most dogs are bought or kept for their looks and this will never change.

Exactly and this is why we have the divergence. I don't think it will be a gap we see close. There will always be the people who need and want the dog for a job. It is just sad to see crippled dogs bred for looks and nervy dogs bred for pets because they are pretty and sit by the fire. Then when Fido bites Timmy in the face, the working lines get looked at cockeyed. Not the stupid breeders breeding for looks and not worrying about the rest of the package.

Its all starting to make sense now. That division I saw doesnt seem to be so bad now. They have all come from the same place, but bred for different goals, needs and purpose. If this is to continue, then wouldnt we eventually have 2 completely different dogs? Desert Ranger, I think you are saying that some showlines do have a good drive but not as extreme or consistent, which may be what 4pack was referring to about his female being "bi-polar" ? Would this be the common opinion on show dogs? To be honest, my male(showline) is like that, sometimes he just doesnt seem to be in the mood. Well, hes in the mood when I dont need him to be and not when I do need him to be. However, my female(showline) pup is all prey drive, prey drive explosion 24/7. Thanks for all the input everyone! I got a lot out of this one. Keep em coming if you got em.

4pack just brought to mind a subject that confuses me. Didn't the SV limit the number of breedings a stud male can have in Germany---what is it, 50(not sure)? If true, I imagine their reasoning was not to narrow the gene pool. So when the limit is reached, breeders get around this by selling top dogs to other countries, where they are again used? (Oh, how could I forget--let's not forget that new word--leasing the male). Are the additional litters still pink-papered by the SV? If they are, I don't understand. If not, and the SV breeders sell off the dogs where they are utilized and litters become registered with another org., such as AKC---- isn't this still wrong? Isn't the goal to keep the breed genetically diverse and healthy? I may be confused as to what I just wrote--would appreciate anyone clearing this up for me. ....................................................... Kyle--If my choice of dog was based solely on color, then I would have one of each--bi-color or black, black and red/tan, and sable. I like a little variety; but, of course, when I go to pick out the puppy, color never becomes the determining factor. Maybe the judges are misinformed as to what the *customer* wants.

No my showline has good and bad weeks. Never had a dog that was happy to play one day, depressed and stayed in bed until made to get up the next. She has been like this since I have owned her. I figured it would get better after she got used to being here. It hasn't. I have seen people mope like this, but never a dog. My other dogs are alwasy eager to play, walk, potty, get in the truck whatever I ask of them, unless there is something wrong and even then, my male was trying to jump in the truck with one rear leg in a splint. One week this dog greets everyone at the door with a wagging tail, the next, she could care less if I am at the door, calling her name to come on. Seriously this dog has issues. I have had allot of dogs in my life, many different breeds and mutts. Never have I had a dog act like this. I'm seriously thinking of putting her down. 2 weeks she has beenin a funk. I don't see a great quality of life when she only gets up to potty and eat. No light shines in those eyes for any of us. All our other dogs love us to death and will be up our butt if given the choice. This one, give her the doggy bed and leave her alone. IO have given up trying to play ball with her, unless she brings it to me.

4pack-- I don't really know if your kidding, or not. She's probably just tired. Running 5 miles a day. I have showlines and I really don't think they could do that on a daily basis. I take my boys to a field 2 x's a day--we're there usually about an hour. They run, mostly trot, and walk. Continually running--Don't know about that.

You got it Mose....