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by Sunsilver on 18 June 2013 - 12:06
Joanro. LOL! Of course I know an animal as big as a bull can't be trained using force, but I was was just having too much fun imagining it! Shows how crazy those PETA idiots can be! 
Several of my uncles had dairy farms, but only one ever had his own bull, a Holstein. It wasn't long before he sent it off to the stockyards to be made into sausages (or whatever they do with bulls). It was just too difficult to handle such a huge critter safely. He obviously didn't have your skill with animals.
Joan's bull: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/forum.read?mnr=726099-sled-dog-pictures-from-the-archives-as-promised
Jeffs,was this 'urban legend' wearing a shock collar on his tender bits? I heard about a guy who actually managed to shoot himself in the balls when he replaced a defective fuse in his truck with a rifle cartridge! The resulting pain caused him to lose control of the truck, and suffer further injuries when he wound up in the ditch.
What was even funnier, when his wife heard about the accident, her first question was, "Is the truck all right?"
Sorry, just having too much fun with this thread...
Several of my uncles had dairy farms, but only one ever had his own bull, a Holstein. It wasn't long before he sent it off to the stockyards to be made into sausages (or whatever they do with bulls). It was just too difficult to handle such a huge critter safely. He obviously didn't have your skill with animals.
Joan's bull: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/forum.read?mnr=726099-sled-dog-pictures-from-the-archives-as-promised
Jeffs,was this 'urban legend' wearing a shock collar on his tender bits?
I heard about a guy who actually managed to shoot himself in the balls when he replaced a defective fuse in his truck with a rifle cartridge! The resulting pain caused him to lose control of the truck, and suffer further injuries when he wound up in the ditch.What was even funnier, when his wife heard about the accident, her first question was, "Is the truck all right?"
Sorry, just having too much fun with this thread...
by kitkat3478 on 18 June 2013 - 12:06
Talk about going "off topic",
by joanro on 18 June 2013 - 14:06
SS, no point asking if her husband was alright, that answer would be obvious, LOl.
Holstien bulls are notoriously bad actors....killers. A nose ring and cattle prod would be minimal to handle one intent on doing damage.
Oops, off topic, but this topic has run it's course. Nothing much left to say, except don't pick up a transmitter unless you KNOW what the results will be, and that they will be helpful.
Holstien bulls are notoriously bad actors....killers. A nose ring and cattle prod would be minimal to handle one intent on doing damage.
Oops, off topic, but this topic has run it's course. Nothing much left to say, except don't pick up a transmitter unless you KNOW what the results will be, and that they will be helpful.
by Gazzer on 21 June 2013 - 07:06
Good point well made Margaret - what some of these dogs have to go through in the name of 'sport'.
by Gazzer on 21 June 2013 - 09:06
Having not viewed this thread for a few days a couple of points I would like to address
(i) Just because I or others dont agree with the use of e collars - but more especially the abuse of them - that doesn't mean that we dont know what we are talking about. Aditionally just because we disagree with the use of them it doesn't mean we are tree hugging eco zealots. The patronising and purile comments made by a few people on here and elsewhere do nothing but harm to any credibility to the arguement the use of an e collar may have had. 'Crying at adverts' - 'being a pet owner' - to be used as a term to demean someones arguement -what a load of garbage, it beggers belief that anyone could think this is in any way constructive.
(ii) When I hear 'zealots' being used I immediatley think of the pro lobby. My god they come out in their hundreds to defend their way of training. It brings to mind and old adage ' they doth protest too much'. Too many are trying to make the use of such collars into a pseuo science - it aint - dog training is very simple and should be kept that way. Only when some try to complicate it, cut corners or go too fast does it become difficult and that isn' the dogs fault although they have to bear the brunt of it.
(iii)Some of us have trained dogs to a high standard, with different breeds and for a variety of disciplines. We have researched the many many ways of training a dog and have come to the conclusion that e collars are unnecessary save but one in a thousand case where it will save a dog from a one way trip to the vet. So many of the people that will not ever use an e collar have a great deal of knowledge and experience. So please dont trot out the usual tripe - ' but you dont know or understand' - we DO!!!
(iv) Forget who said it -' Violence starts where Knowledge end's. No matter how it is dressed up - putting electricity through a dogs neck - or other part of its body is violence. Now granted a vibrating collar is a different thing. The ridiculous arguement about all living animals having electirical pulses running through our bodies is either missing the point entirely and they are on the wrong forum - or they have not a clue about make up of the different electical charges.
(v) If the dog wont out - then teach it - motivate it. The only person at fault is the handler/trainer. I would suggest that way too much bite work has been done with very little control built in. Some breeds will bite the minute they are born and yet people persist in doing loads of bite work with them. Its the last thing they need. Teach them control alongside the bitework. Do too much and it will all go pear shaped. The bitework is not the be all and end all - without control you can have the hardest meanest dog on the block but with no control you ain't gonna win diddley squat. Patience and clarity of what you want the dog to do, is surely the way to teach. Show the dog what you want in small bite sized chunks and then put it all together slowly. Motivation, proofing and generalising your training will give you a better end product. But too many people are in too much of a rush and they think that these devices are the way forward. But they have to come off at some stage - and if you think the dog does't know it your kidding yourself.
(vi) Do all your teaching up close - so guarding, positions etc are taught close by so you can adjust there and then.Then proof, generalise and then put in distance. Too many see going back to foundation training as a sign of weeknesss - when really it should be the bread and butter of training.
Off to do some motivational training
(i) Just because I or others dont agree with the use of e collars - but more especially the abuse of them - that doesn't mean that we dont know what we are talking about. Aditionally just because we disagree with the use of them it doesn't mean we are tree hugging eco zealots. The patronising and purile comments made by a few people on here and elsewhere do nothing but harm to any credibility to the arguement the use of an e collar may have had. 'Crying at adverts' - 'being a pet owner' - to be used as a term to demean someones arguement -what a load of garbage, it beggers belief that anyone could think this is in any way constructive.
(ii) When I hear 'zealots' being used I immediatley think of the pro lobby. My god they come out in their hundreds to defend their way of training. It brings to mind and old adage ' they doth protest too much'. Too many are trying to make the use of such collars into a pseuo science - it aint - dog training is very simple and should be kept that way. Only when some try to complicate it, cut corners or go too fast does it become difficult and that isn' the dogs fault although they have to bear the brunt of it.
(iii)Some of us have trained dogs to a high standard, with different breeds and for a variety of disciplines. We have researched the many many ways of training a dog and have come to the conclusion that e collars are unnecessary save but one in a thousand case where it will save a dog from a one way trip to the vet. So many of the people that will not ever use an e collar have a great deal of knowledge and experience. So please dont trot out the usual tripe - ' but you dont know or understand' - we DO!!!
(iv) Forget who said it -' Violence starts where Knowledge end's. No matter how it is dressed up - putting electricity through a dogs neck - or other part of its body is violence. Now granted a vibrating collar is a different thing. The ridiculous arguement about all living animals having electirical pulses running through our bodies is either missing the point entirely and they are on the wrong forum - or they have not a clue about make up of the different electical charges.
(v) If the dog wont out - then teach it - motivate it. The only person at fault is the handler/trainer. I would suggest that way too much bite work has been done with very little control built in. Some breeds will bite the minute they are born and yet people persist in doing loads of bite work with them. Its the last thing they need. Teach them control alongside the bitework. Do too much and it will all go pear shaped. The bitework is not the be all and end all - without control you can have the hardest meanest dog on the block but with no control you ain't gonna win diddley squat. Patience and clarity of what you want the dog to do, is surely the way to teach. Show the dog what you want in small bite sized chunks and then put it all together slowly. Motivation, proofing and generalising your training will give you a better end product. But too many people are in too much of a rush and they think that these devices are the way forward. But they have to come off at some stage - and if you think the dog does't know it your kidding yourself.
(vi) Do all your teaching up close - so guarding, positions etc are taught close by so you can adjust there and then.Then proof, generalise and then put in distance. Too many see going back to foundation training as a sign of weeknesss - when really it should be the bread and butter of training.
Off to do some motivational training
by Hundmutter on 21 June 2013 - 09:06
Excellent post, Gazza.
by Gazzer on 21 June 2013 - 09:06
PS - Every and I mean EVERY individual I have met that uses an e collar says - I have never used it up high or to its full potential or used it abusively
by Sunsilver on 21 June 2013 - 09:06
I agree! That was probably the best post so far on this thread!
I am, for the first time, considering buying a shock collar. But that is only because I have a dog which has prey aggression. The use of a collar to snap her out of fixating on another dog or animal in the moment before she attacks COULD save that animal's life. And her's, too, if Animal Control gets involved...
Meantime, she is never off leash when other dogs are around, and we're working on getting 100% obedience to the "HALT" and 'LEAVE IT!" command.
I am, for the first time, considering buying a shock collar. But that is only because I have a dog which has prey aggression. The use of a collar to snap her out of fixating on another dog or animal in the moment before she attacks COULD save that animal's life. And her's, too, if Animal Control gets involved...
Meantime, she is never off leash when other dogs are around, and we're working on getting 100% obedience to the "HALT" and 'LEAVE IT!" command.
by Slamdunc on 21 June 2013 - 10:06
Sunsilver,
Please be very careful using an E collar for dog aggression. Prey drive is very different than dog aggression. Pain induced corrections from any device, i.e. prong, hand, stick, leash, or E collar can escalate aggression. While the appropriate use of an E collar can help to correct dog aggression in some dogs, in other dogs it can really enrage the dog making the situation much worse. You need to know which type of dog you have and how it will respond, before using a "shock collar." There are other ways to address dog aggression that will not further escalate the aggressive behavior. If you have some questions shoot me a PM, I really don't want to participate any further in another futile E collar debate on here. I only want to caution you to proceed very carefully.
Please be very careful using an E collar for dog aggression. Prey drive is very different than dog aggression. Pain induced corrections from any device, i.e. prong, hand, stick, leash, or E collar can escalate aggression. While the appropriate use of an E collar can help to correct dog aggression in some dogs, in other dogs it can really enrage the dog making the situation much worse. You need to know which type of dog you have and how it will respond, before using a "shock collar." There are other ways to address dog aggression that will not further escalate the aggressive behavior. If you have some questions shoot me a PM, I really don't want to participate any further in another futile E collar debate on here. I only want to caution you to proceed very carefully.
by Sunsilver on 21 June 2013 - 10:06
I understand that, Jim. She does not react aggressively to corrections with the prong, and the e-collar would only be a way of breaking her focus on the other dog, sort of like a tap on the shoulder when verbal commands fail.
They can become totally deaf when prey drive kicks in!
They can become totally deaf when prey drive kicks in!
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