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by Jeffs on 21 June 2013 - 14:06
Gazzer - the people who are against the use of ecollars are against the use of ecollars. The people who use ecollars believe they can be used correctly. Nothing anyone says is going to change the other person's opinion.
But the original question in the thread was about an ecollar around the waist of the dog - not about the merits. effectiveness, or morality of the ecollar. The problem seems to be that every tread that mentions "ecollar" becomes an opportunity for the anti-ecollar crowd to spout the evils of an ecollar, with the inevitable cruelty of the collar.
It's not like the people who use ecollars turn every thread about training into a forum for advocating the positives of training with an ecollar. "dog won't sit - use an ecollar". "dog won't heal - use an ecollar".
But the original question in the thread was about an ecollar around the waist of the dog - not about the merits. effectiveness, or morality of the ecollar. The problem seems to be that every tread that mentions "ecollar" becomes an opportunity for the anti-ecollar crowd to spout the evils of an ecollar, with the inevitable cruelty of the collar.
It's not like the people who use ecollars turn every thread about training into a forum for advocating the positives of training with an ecollar. "dog won't sit - use an ecollar". "dog won't heal - use an ecollar".
by Hundmutter on 21 June 2013 - 15:06
I disagree. I don't think it is as polarised as you portray it,
Jeffs. Leaving aside the way in which the 'pro' side tends
to degenerate very quickly into insulting any opposition
(never IMO the best way to convince the world you are in
the right !), I have seen numerous posts in which exactly
what you say does not happen HAS happened. The use
of an e collar is quite frequently introduced as a suggestion
to solve a variety of training problems.
Which is actually fine by some of us - it is another 'tool' in
the box; people can take or leave the idea. If you READ what
I have actually said in my other posts on this debate, in this thred
and others, my real position (rather than the interpretation of it by
some posters) is that I can see there are justifiable uses of it in
some situations; notably I can see the sense of using it for Police
and Army dogs - THOUGH NOT ON AN ABSOLUTE, HABITUAL,
basis for ALL their dogs, just those which it truly suits and works
with. I can see far less justification for its use with Sports dogs,
or with pets; but I accept there are times when it could suit the dog
and the circumstances. The fact that I prefer not to use it, and the
associated fact that I do not train bitework in any form, is entirely
personal and I do not think the world has to work by my 'rules' and
preferences.
This orig.post queried the (apparently, to some but not all readers) unusual
positioning of a second collar; and its frequency of use, the purpose
and effectiveness. One of the questions which occurred to me was
that unless there was some way to be sure the collar/belt would
not move around on the dog in action, there might be a danger of it
connecting, not with the dog's scrotum, but the sensitive penile sheath
(also possibly the penis itself if the dog happened to extend it at the
wrong moment - and I'm sure we have all seen the occasional 'excited'
dog at Trials !). Because I do not use an e collar regularly I have some
question in mind about whether they ever turn around on the neck, let
alone one used round the belly. I also wonder about restriction & dis-
comfort to the dog if such a 'belt' is too tight. Why SHOULD I 'shut up and
go away' rather than ask perfectly reasonable welfare questions ? We all
learn more by asking about things we don't understand.
Jeffs. Leaving aside the way in which the 'pro' side tends
to degenerate very quickly into insulting any opposition
(never IMO the best way to convince the world you are in
the right !), I have seen numerous posts in which exactly
what you say does not happen HAS happened. The use
of an e collar is quite frequently introduced as a suggestion
to solve a variety of training problems.
Which is actually fine by some of us - it is another 'tool' in
the box; people can take or leave the idea. If you READ what
I have actually said in my other posts on this debate, in this thred
and others, my real position (rather than the interpretation of it by
some posters) is that I can see there are justifiable uses of it in
some situations; notably I can see the sense of using it for Police
and Army dogs - THOUGH NOT ON AN ABSOLUTE, HABITUAL,
basis for ALL their dogs, just those which it truly suits and works
with. I can see far less justification for its use with Sports dogs,
or with pets; but I accept there are times when it could suit the dog
and the circumstances. The fact that I prefer not to use it, and the
associated fact that I do not train bitework in any form, is entirely
personal and I do not think the world has to work by my 'rules' and
preferences.
This orig.post queried the (apparently, to some but not all readers) unusual
positioning of a second collar; and its frequency of use, the purpose
and effectiveness. One of the questions which occurred to me was
that unless there was some way to be sure the collar/belt would
not move around on the dog in action, there might be a danger of it
connecting, not with the dog's scrotum, but the sensitive penile sheath
(also possibly the penis itself if the dog happened to extend it at the
wrong moment - and I'm sure we have all seen the occasional 'excited'
dog at Trials !). Because I do not use an e collar regularly I have some
question in mind about whether they ever turn around on the neck, let
alone one used round the belly. I also wonder about restriction & dis-
comfort to the dog if such a 'belt' is too tight. Why SHOULD I 'shut up and
go away' rather than ask perfectly reasonable welfare questions ? We all
learn more by asking about things we don't understand.
by Slamdunc on 21 June 2013 - 15:06
I have seen numerous posts in which exactly
what you say does not happen HAS happened. The use
of an e collar is quite frequently introduced as a suggestion
to solve a variety of training problems.
On almost every thread that I comment on regarding the use of an E collar, I am usually advising people NOT to use one. I rarely see any serious working dog person advocating the use of an E collar to fix problems, perhaps I have missed those threads? The thought of an E collar to be used as a last resort is improper, and a pet peeve of mine. The use of an E collar to shortcut proper foundation and motivational training is also very wrong. Properly used it has a lot of benefits and advantages in training. I do not think it should be used to solve a variety of training problems. With proper training most training problems are resolved before they are ever a problem.
Hundmutter,
To answer your question about the collar "moving" around on the neck, that is an excellent question, I use a "stretch strap" that keeps the collar in place on the neck. It allows me to keep the collar loose and as the dog works and the neck muscle expands the collar can stretch and will not over tighten. A loose E collar is very ineffective, just as a loose prong collar is also ineffective.
what you say does not happen HAS happened. The use
of an e collar is quite frequently introduced as a suggestion
to solve a variety of training problems.
On almost every thread that I comment on regarding the use of an E collar, I am usually advising people NOT to use one. I rarely see any serious working dog person advocating the use of an E collar to fix problems, perhaps I have missed those threads? The thought of an E collar to be used as a last resort is improper, and a pet peeve of mine. The use of an E collar to shortcut proper foundation and motivational training is also very wrong. Properly used it has a lot of benefits and advantages in training. I do not think it should be used to solve a variety of training problems. With proper training most training problems are resolved before they are ever a problem.
Hundmutter,
To answer your question about the collar "moving" around on the neck, that is an excellent question, I use a "stretch strap" that keeps the collar in place on the neck. It allows me to keep the collar loose and as the dog works and the neck muscle expands the collar can stretch and will not over tighten. A loose E collar is very ineffective, just as a loose prong collar is also ineffective.
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