THE ULTIMATE GSD! - Page 6

Ah, forget it - workingline people will always only see the unmotivated, slow, and oversized banana backed black and red showline dog,
and showline people will always only see the ugly sable prey driven workingline dog with steep forehand and short croup, not able to trot.
Welcome in the real world!

Susie,

Do Police departments in Germany discriminate between show and work GSDs? do they refuse to test and then accept GSDs of show pedigrees?
Also in Police departments, is show population same, less or more than work population?

Ibrahim

Ibrahim, the police doesn´t care about lines, only about health and working abilities - but a showline is easier to sell for a lot more money to the US ( ) or to Asia.
Police doesn´t pay enough...
It´s late over here - good night!

Susie, I really think you believe what you just wrote!   I' ve seen a few working dogs over the years and I'll leave it at that!

One other thing, only two out of a litter of eight in a Showlines litter are really going to be show quality, for a variety of reasons from size, not great show structure, missing testicles, or teeth, there are many Showlines dogs that are not going to fetch the price that makes them prohibitive to police or military to acquire. So if I follow your reasoning, I should see a representative amount of these dogs in law enforcement. Cause one thing I know is that police only care about whether the dog can work.....so there is a something that doesn't add up, but maybe I'm just missing these dogs in service..

As far as the previous posts I feel a good dog is a good dog regardless of breed or line. I judge simply off its suitability for the task at hand. But I would take my odds off a litter of proven working dogs vs showlines any day.

however as far as an ultimate gsd. everyone has the own ideas. but imho genetics is like poker. you have strategy but still a game of odds and percentages.Then must be followed with imprinting and training through all development stages for its particular discipline which is another gamble.

So how can one say they have the ultimate dog? especially with an utilitarian breed that is a jack of all trades master of none. and balances in between the trades?



 

Susie, yes I agree there is variance in litters also in workinglines, and some nor good at all, but considering the fact workinglines are selected more for those qualities you mention it would be strange if this didn´t affect the offspring sucess in both sport or some kind of real work, you don´t see many if any breeders that strive for policeogs or dogs for sport that are using 100% showlines nowadays even if there are individual dogs from all lines that could be fit for the job.

Johan and Gustav - I know we will never agree...
It´s not about breeding " prey monsters " for the semi-professional handlers on the trialfield or " man-killers" for real men(  ), it´s about stable, solid, "normal" dogs, the ULTIMATE GSD...

At least in Germany workingline owners raise and train different than showline owners ( no surprise for you, I guess ...)
Usually workingline folks don´t care about v-ratings, showline folks don´t care about points
That said the puppies learn different things as soon as they are born - every day of their life, different traits are developed / suppressed.

A "green" workingline is the best the police is able to buy, because these dogs were trained day by day for 1 1/2 or 2 years in prey and/or defense only, a lot of them didn´t even have to go through a trial at that point ( no real out, no pressure in obedience, cause a workingline doesn´t need to be titled SchH3 / IPO3 in the age of 24 months...they become "washed out" because the owner/handler isn´t satisfied with anything ( might be tracking, obedience, bitework ). These people do sell quick, workinglines are cheap, and for most of them they are exchangeable ...)
Edit because I forgot to say: For about 20+ years it´s even difficult for the German police to buy the washed out working line dogs, because they are sold overseas for a lot more money than the police is willing to pay for these dogs...

Most of the showlines in this age are already lost for any good work, they were forced through the trials, plus miles of showtraining day after day. aggression is unwanted = forbidden.
At the end the adult dog that people tend to see is first of all the result of its surrounding and training.

The percentage of dogs capable to go for 300 points is higher out of a litter from prey drive monsters, but I doubt a 300 points dog is always better than a 270 points dog...
the percentage of dogs capable to work as a street police dog is higher out of a litter of strong minded real dogs, but I doubt most of the people would like to own one or are even able to handle one of this kind ( ) ...
but the highest percentage of dogs capable to do anything will be out of stable dogs with medium / a littlebit above medium drives, no matter WHERE they come from.

At the end of the day it´s up to the owner/handler.

Gustav, I don´t want to disillusion you, but showline people are salesmen/women, the dogs you mention are sold far earlier than any police department would be even interested, in the most countries size doesn´t matter, missing teeth or testicles ? - either to pet people in the age of 6 - 7 months - or shipped all over the world - at least these dogs are out of famous parents, and people are thankful for a good deal ( sarcasm pure ).
Take a nice colored picture, and there will be a buyer for every German showline...

Excellent post Susie