IS HE A LONG COAT OR STOCK COAT? I'M CONFUSED! - Page 8

Teena's father was the offspring of two long coated parents, so I know for sure she has the gene.

Kitkat, I really don't understand the difference between a standard coat and a stock coat. I thought they were both the same!
If a dog had a slightly longer, heavier coat than norm, but was still obviously a normal coat, I'd say his coat was more plush than usual. I have two very different coats between my male and female GSDs. Star's coat is rather thin (Xeph termed it 'dry') while Ranger's is quite thick and plush and has more undercoat. Gracie's is somewhere in between. So, there is quite a range of variation in coat types, even among dogs with 'stock' coats.

Whoooa, Hexe.  Sorry to come backatya after rather a long gap, it's 
the time diff, I have been in bed asleep !

Thanks, I just learned a new word: fakakta (registry);  I like it !


OK - Floh  BamS :  She is lovely, but I do not and never would see her
as a LSH.  She is, to me and I think most in Europe, a good Stock coat with
plenty of feathering.  You will see dogs like her in all Rings, all of the time.
"We" would never think of describing her as a 'Plush' coat.
As Susie said above, there are a lot of 'in-betweens'.   [Like, for instance, what
we usually regard as a (again, incorrect) 'mole' coat, ie a very thin, usually 'dry' but
still double (just!) stock / standard coat, which is what I think KitKat is discussing
with "smooth" coats ?]

My own understanding of 'Plush' has always been:  a good quality, fully double
coat, with or without some feathering on belly and legs, and, given Americans'
predeliction for 'more&fluffier' in ALL Showdogs [as often noticeable when comparing
podium photos from the different countries, + the cross-Pond rows that have broken
out intermittently in many other breeds  esp. assorted Gundogs] with a (miniscule)
change in depth, shine, and softening of the guard hairs.  Just on the lines of "More
is better";  I do NOT consider Plush to be completely soft ... I wouldn't dare suggest
the US GSD community has 'ruined the breed' that far !   But a lot of folk, including
many who should really know better, appear to ignore the original German Breed
Standard, now the FCI's, in favour of the AKC version, or their interpretation of it, when
it comes to Showing.  Alright, their prerogative in their country under their KC rules -
but not entirely logical when the majority of dogs they are trying to show, these days,
are not ASL to way-back, but imported dogs from Germany, or the first gen. thereof,
and even WL imports from the whole Eastern Bloc.

I was not talking about Plush in re. CMills's puppy.
What I said was that I feel he will end up with a coat of 'in-between' length, not LSH
but not Stock either (but perhaps more long than normally seen as Plush), but with
emphasis on the TEXTURE & QUALITY of the hair.  Which I predict will be TOO soft.
And very WAVY. (We all know a bit too much wave in a coat can totally spoil the 
LOOK of the dog's over and underlines, even if the structure beneath is sound, don't
we ?).     And should not be 'excused' as Plush ...

Yes, the first question asked, 85% of the time, when buyers phoned for eg one of  my
mentor's puppies was: "Have you got any longcoats ?".  We know the general pet-
owning public think they are prettier.  And, in the UK, as in Germany and elsewhere
in Europe, we know we can sell LSHs easily, when they appear, even while they could
not be Shown.  But if you are breeding primarily not for purely pets but to get dogs into
Show homes, to continue good examples of the Breed, you certainly try not to produce
faulty textures  (wire-haired is another example that still crops up occasionally).  Here,
I do not think the DNA helps us much, really, as it is mapped for the 3 lengths of coats
but there is probably another set of alleles to do with texture that nobody is looking for.

Incidentally, apart from one double coated but particularly hairy individual where I used
to work, almost all the coated dogs I have known - well - have actually been 'normal' LSH, of
varying degrees of length and feather, some of which would possibly have been seen by the
American market as 'plush' coats, many of which I suspect would have been way too hairy
for that definition.  To us they were/are all simply 'coats';  I have only ever regularly had my
hands on ONE specimen of the third, long-open-single coated variety of GSD ( although
I have seen and touched many others ), and I can say his 'guard hairs'/coat felt far from the
'correct' harsh texture, so the genetics are present for variations - the 'truth is out there'.

Hundmutter- Betovens coat isn't that wavy, it wasn't brushed/bathed in those posted pics. If you could have hands on and see him in person, as I do, you'd see his hair isn't any more wavy than my stock coats. Will be posting new updated pics of him soon.

You know, a few decent, full res. pics of him from different angles sure would help a lot...

Jenni, as I posted previously I plan to get better, updated pics very soon, but it will have to be when I get some extra time. The previous pics posted were just "yard" shots, not good ones after a grooming. He stays outside most of the time.

I know, just saying...all this back and forth when pics may clarify........

Actually I'm just waiting for his DNA to come back next week, that will clarify if he's long coated or not. Honestly I didn't ask if his coat was too soft, too wavy, etc. I was only curious of the final length it will be.

CMills, in your OP you said one of the puzzling things about
his coat was that it was softer and silkier than others you
were used to.  I realise that it was me, rather than you, who
introduced the 'waviness' factor.  I did so because you seemed to be
asking how the coat might turn out, not solely whether it was LSH
or Stock, although that was how you titled the thred;  based on what you
described and what could be seen from the photos, and given the current age 
of the dog, I made you a prediction about how I thought it would end up, and
told you if I turned out to be right, this was not a 'correct' coat,  as per the Standard.  
If it remains (naturally) 'soft & silky', and stays at that 'in-between' length, the guard
hairs will very likely not be the 'correct'  texture, and they almost certainly
will contain some extent of 'wave', BECAUSE of those two factors, softness
and length.   Which makes his coat faulty, by the original Breed Standard and
​also in Show terms, at least if the judges know what they are doing.
There are far worse faults for a dog to have, of course.  NB Most LSH dogs have
correct 'harsh' texture, they are not unusually soft n silky, and their longer coats
therefore don't curl up at odd angles, interfering with the smoothness of the dogs'
structural lines.

[Perhaps I won't go too deeply into the apparent contradiction of a US AKC Standard
that calls for the coat to be "straight, harsh and lying close to the body" but then says
some degree of wiryness or waviness is "permissable";  and yet in the next breath says
"Faults in coat include  soft, silky, too long outer coat, woolly, curly and open coat."]


Should I apologise for giving you an answer that was more than you really
wanted to hear ?  Do I then take it back, a year or so hence,  when Betoven
​finally decides what coat he is going to carry into adulthood, and if I turn out
to be correct in my prediction ?  

Hundmutter- no I don't expect an apology, and yes I mentioned his coat was softer than I'm used to, but I really am only interested in whether or not he will turn out to be what I consider a true long coat, like the adult Remo progeny I posted above.  He still hasn't had his first coat blow, so we shall see what he looks like as an adult. And his DNA report.

SS- to me, I use three coat types in my description of 'my' dogs.
However correct,or incorrect I may be is open to debate.
I say, standard coat, which is...I guess standard, the coat most desired in the German Shepherd.(even in that tho,there are varying degrees of coat,some a little tighter to the body,shortersome a slight bit longer,softer hairs)
The stock coat is what I would say cmills' dog is. Even that has varying degrees. Those that are a little more 'plush', I still say that is a LSC,
Than you have your long coats, tufts included....
Damn,cmills...thought you would send him my way!! (Just kidding of course. Like I said, if he were mine, I would be very proud to have him).