** Steep croup/top line from top breeders ** Is this normal? - Page 69

Ibrahim, what someone MIGHT have said was they have more reach due to looser ligaments! TOTALLY different thing! The ligaments are the fibrous bands that hold the joints together.

Waleed, the idea is to breed dogs that conform to the standard, not to change the standard to conform to the dogs we are breeding. The FCI asks for a straight back, that's the ideal for the breed. Arched backs are incorrect; they are so heavily bred into the GSL's that most think they are correct.

Has anyone ever seen or heard a judge (U.S. or SV) fault a dog for "too much front reach". I haven't. In the U.S., the judge would be laughed or booed out of the ring. An SV judge, if he saw something amiss in the forehand would explain what he is seeing in the anatomy that is faulty. "Front reach" is not a part of the anatomy, it is a product of the anatomy.

The GSDCA or "specialty" dog has been bred for many years and generations with "front reach" at the top of the list. You just do not see the big winners without wide gait. If it was due to poor muscle or unduly loose joints, then we would probably see a lot of injured or broken down dogs in the frront. I am not aware of this as an issue.

Also, there are GSL with just as much forehand as ASL, one just has to look for them.

Blitzen,

Why would you think Asl is the focus of the discussion? I do not see anyone is only focusing on Asl including myself. But even if it was, so what? what is wrong in that? Isn't it through discussion and info passed by you and others we learn about it and lot of things would be clarified !! Since I was a child I never took anything for granted, even what they taught us about religion and I paid for it many times, nowadays we have Religion scholars who say some of what we were taught in school about religion was wrong interpretation of Quran. If there is something that makes Asl have better open up I would want to know what exactly it is, and feel sure and confident it is the very reason why.

I stated some possibilities to look at. If you wish we rule out the steepness of Gsl and no angle of croup with back (when arch is removed as it disguises croup lay and steepness) especially that Susie pointed out some points which make it a weak possibility.

If you wish also we rule out the the possibility of Asl having weaker muscles or ligaments especially Blitzen and LMD believe it is not valid.

And we will look into the other possibilities and any more possibilities that might come up, if you want to stop I will forget about it in this thread .

LMD, very good post indeed.

If it was due to poor muscle or unduly loose joints, then we would probably see a lot of injured or broken down dogs in the front. I am not aware of this as an issue.

I like that. I too have never seen a GSD break because of an arch on top of his back, does that justify the arch?

 "Front reach" is not a part of the anatomy, it is a product of the anatomy.

I like and agree to that. Front reach is part of movement

And yes it is true that no judge faults a good front reach, but at same time judges look for endurance and efficient movement on top when comparing contestants, that is why when selecting VAs they would put back the one that tires earlier, so if a dog with too much front reach tired before others he would not top his mates.

Also, there are GSL with just as much forehand as ASL, one just has to look for them.

I have seen Gsl VAs with only sufficient front reach. All recent VAs do not show that good joint open, Blitzen's dog has excellent joint open, though it would not probably qualify for a VA title in Germany. I would love to see a mind convincing justification for this open up, it most probably is the reason for more front reach.

Ibrahim

Waleed , here is the correct rear angulation as per the standard

And after a while I will show you a nice simple way to recognize a correct, shallow or deep rear angulation og a dog in stack  from 1st glance after some practice.

Please see point of thigh joint

and see start point of hock joint

Imagine the horizontal line which passes through the start point of hock joint

When rear angulation is correct, distance from thigh joint to the horizontal should be close to the blue vertical line length 

The longer the blue line the shallower is the rear (dog needs more angulation in the rear)

The shorter the blue line the deeper the rear angulation (dog has deep rear)

I will show you one or two examples on dogs

What do you think of the rear angulation of each one of these dogs?

Here are the horizontal line which should make the answer easier

I do not have the autocad on my labtop anymore, the program I am using now gives me line angle relate to picture not to object, but those lines are ok, first one needs to be taken up a bit as ground is in favor of dog back slope.

1st pic the dog has no angulation , thus angulation can be better

2nd dog is the best of the three

3rd dog like u mentioned is deeper in the rear. Does mean overangulation?

Hope i'm right, lol

100% correct, with little practice on dogs you will start evaluating rears angulation with precision.