** Steep croup/top line from top breeders ** Is this normal? - Page 71

I thought we are discussing about German Shepherd dogs as a whole, I´m the last one you need to convince about the validity of the SV standard...
but in reality neither all of the GSL/WL stick to the standard nor do all of the ASL.
This thread is very interesting, because people try to understand "why" a certain kind of conformation might be an advantage or disadvantage,
and at least for me it´s very interesting that even in the same pictures all of us see different things. Might be out of experience, might be out of accustomizing. We even interpret simple terms like "arch" differently. ( Totally difficult for me to follow these discussions = simple lack of language ability )
That said right now in this thread happens the same as in the "real" world - although all of us read or see the same, the interpretations are totally different, no difference on shows, no difference even between SV judges - at the end it´s not about reality, but about priorities, impressions, and feelings.
A dog is no "croup", no "topline", no "angle", it´s the result of all of it combined with temperament and working ability.

Susie, i agree.

We are talking about the different aspect of the GSD, and how it affects its gait, arent we?

AKC and SV see pasterns differently, I'd like to know what other's thought are about this...as related to front reach and over all gait.


 

Another topic on conformation from 2011, very interesting stuff.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/forum.read?mnr=594052-origin-of-arched-back&pagen=7

 

The more the angle of pastern the more you add to front reach, but also the weaker the pastern gets. In regards to pastern whether it should be 22 or 25 degrees is not a big deal but what we see on some GSDs is an angle closer to 30 degrees and some have even a bigger angle.

I think longer front legs and longer pasterns favor longer reach. But the most that ads to front reach is correct shoulder angulation, long front upper arm, correct shoulder blade lay back and the ability to open up the shoulder (what some call elbow open).

The more isn't necessarily the better, endurance does not come from more front reach alone, balance plays a big role in efficient movement, agile build plays a big role too.

The deceleration period is not a talk, studies were made on pressure plates where steps and timing was measured, one is not supposed to get convinced and take it for granted but one should consider all various aspects of movement to understand what is efficient and what is not.

For example if, when front reach is improved it brings rear instability, then we should stop increasing the front reach at the last point where rear was still stable.

If increasing front reach leads to sooner fatigue we should stop at the last point fatigue was minimum, and so on. efficient movement is a equation with lots of players.

Efficient  movement  is about endurance. If you need a dog to herd sheep for 8 continuous hours daily and then watch and guard them against thieves at night and you have a show GSD that has the best angulation possible but does not last 2 hours of herding and at night goes to sleep, and you have a Work GSD that has no angulation and lasts the 8 hours herding with full interest and at night it does watch and guard, which dog you would choose to herd and guard your sheep and property?

In theory and in science the better the angulation the better equippment for endurace, but also the better the ligaments the better equipment, the better agile build the better equippment, the better temperamentmore added value to the equipment and so on, it is a collection of many variables. The more of a single thing that might cause other elements to vanish isn't in the end a good thing. At a point in history GSD had it all then something went wrong and now he doesn't have it all, each dog has some, and misses few, whether show, work, German, American, Czech and so on.

Ibrahim

Susie,

You are in Germany, do you know breeders who breed correct or close to correct structure combined with corret GSD temperament? Not GSDs that win in show ring, not Sport GSD or Police GSD, but a GSD like the one we're talking about, color and pedigree does not matter. Such breeders should be promoted, no? 

Ibrahim

Excellent Posts Mr. Ibrahim

Couldn't agree more - Wish I hade more of the 'Agree' Buttons...

"" 

For example if, when front reach is improved it brings rear instability, then we should stop increasing the front reach at the last point where rear was still stable.

If increasing front reach leads to sooner fatigue we should stop at the last point fatigue was minimum, and so on. efficient movement is a equation with lots of players. """

TRYING TO FIND THE SWEEET SPOT ----   LOL..

waiting for susie's reply.

No answer from me, sorry, but I´ll stick to my personal rule " no selling and no advertisements of dogs " - just try to look for the smaller breeders, producing good dogs for generations, not the producers of winners, but the breeders who are involved with their whole heart, not making money, but producing good dogs.
I tend to look at the parents, almost always got puppies out of dogs I either handled or at least saw in real life. Didn´t care about kennel names or VA ratings, but about the dogs. You like the parents? There is a real chance, that you´ll like the offspring.
Everybody on here does have his/her own mind about the "perfect" dog, that said, nobody is able to pick "your" dog for you.
As soon as you try to buy the next "VA" dog or the next "National Competitor" you almost always will be disappointed ( it´s cheaper to buy a lottery ticket ), and your disappointment will reflect in your dog, followed by buying and selling - for what? Not good for the dog, and not good for your own heart...
My personal advice, and I think it´s well known - go out there, be involved, visit the clubs, touch the dogs, make up your mind, and ( at least in the United States ) buy local. There are good dogs everywhere, out of good bloodlines, waiting for you.

Ibrahim's question 

""   You are in Germany, do you know breeders who breed correct or close to correct structure combined with corret GSD temperament? Not GSDs that win in show ring, not Sport GSD or Police GSD, but a GSD like the one we're talking about, color and pedigree does not matter. Such breeders should be promoted, no?  """"

Such breeders should be promoted doesnt mean we are buying from them - not me atleast.

If someone buys or sells its completely his/her own choice. Nothing is a compulsion or any deal is made on gunpoint, its when both parties agree.

Still waiting for the PM - BTW..

Khalid, living in Germany doesn´t mean knowing all, and being right all the time.
My personal requirements may totally differ from yours, but that´s okay, because every dog is different in behavior, and different in conformation, there is no "bad" dog, there are only wrong owners for the wrong dog.
Germany exports 1000s of German Shepherd dogs all over the world year after year, there are good dogs almost everywhere, but you need to ask yourself  " What kind of dog do I want to own? " and than you need to take a look at the dog and its parents by yourself. So either you need to buy local or you have to fly. A pic doesn´t say a lot, a video not much more, a seller/breeder/broker wants to SELL his goods, his truth doesn´t need to be your truth, his interpretation of "working abilites" might be totally different from your interpretation.
Sure there are breeders I like, but even within their breedings there always are differences in temperament and conformation, it´s about the single dog, not the kennel name.