Stud dog question? Does he exist? - Page 1

A stud that has the front legs and topline of ASL. Ibrahim...maybe you can better explain what I mean as you are the conformation expert! If you look at AKC Champions they have their legs set on corner and their backs straight (no roach).

Why are the front legs of German showlines dogs (not working line as working line are more like ASL) set so far under their body? What purpose does this serve?

Is there a stud with:

1)ASL front and topline

2)Tightness of hocks of GWL- no wobble

3)Angulation of GSL

4)Head of GSL

5)Movement of correct ASL/GSL without roach in motion or extreme gaiting

6)Coat of GSL

7)Working ability, athleticism, and medium not heavy build of GWL

Health and temperament/nerves absolutely solid, of course.

I am looking for a blend of the best traits of each to create the ideal, correct german shepherd of moderation who should be able to walk between worlds. Why do I have the feeling this correct german shepherd exists but cannot walk in any of the worlds because they are too ideal, in terms of the founder vision, and not extreme enough to be able to compete in the specialist worlds the breed has separated off into.

Any takers for stud recommendations? They MUST exist!!!

In most likely, is my fear correct that these dogs will be SG rated at local SV shows, 2nd-4th in AKC but will not get the points; IPO awards but not at the highest level; able to herd but only an HIC because training not available. Is my fear misguided? They will be poo poohed in every world they walk through but will be credible and not disgrace themselves...just not what that world wants.

Current stud dogs who can walk the worlds   not just AKC and SV but SV Conformation/AKC conformation/IPO...I have a special place in my heart for Herding dogs and feel we are losing this trait and it from this instinct...the correct german shepherd dog could be maintained.

To me...a German shepherd dog should be a dog of moderation who is a jack of all trades but master of none.

 

 

no

Haha, that is my dream too. I don't know if such a dog is available, but it was and can be produced again from dogs we have. Previously genious breeders made use of dog with very good gait, dog with very good type and dog with strong temperament.

How can it be done? It needs breeders who share your vision Smiley, and who are smart and persistant. We have dogs of excellent angulation, excellent front reach, extremely beautiful type, strong temperament, healthy, can work, have beautiful color and coat. At this time we have better tools than breeders had in the sixties, we have more numbers of excellent dogs in various areas than we did 50 years ago. It can and should be done.

 

First those breeders should recognize and admit the current faults of today's GSD, some of those faults ( show: Steep toplines, non-straight back, steep croups, weak temperament, lack of work ability, hind overangulation, weak ligaments, oversize, loss of athletic build), (work: excessive drives, lack of angulation in hind and front, short croups, lack of correct type, ...)

Second those breeders should not pay attention to what dogs get highest points and highest grades in the show ring. Their goal should be to produce correct to standard no matter what.

Third, those breeders should base their breeding either on work or show dogs, and outcross to outside dogs from the other type, then linebreed on their original line and keep selecting the best in all aspects till they reach their goal. Sometimes they have to make compromises, no problem but they should not eliminate or totally forget about any single trait of the breed.

It isn't easy, no, but it was done before and can be done now.

 

To get both parties, work and show, closer each one of them should be convinced first neither type, show nor work, is correct and complies completely to the standard, and the correct type lies in parts/fragments in both the types not in either one.

 

Work GSD

Does not have the type, lacks in angulation, lacks in endurance .......

Show GSD

Does not have strong temperament for work, overangulated in the rear, oversized and lacks the athletic build

 

Once both parties admit that, they can cooperate to reproduce one work GSD of correct type, beautiful and versatile  

Some will shout, there are work dogs that have good conformation, or there are show dogs that do work. Yes true, but their percentage is negligible. In a healthy situation majority should be well conformed and do have the ability to work, which is not the case in either type.

I admit, if it wasn't for the work people on this board I would have never understood what is correct temperament of GSD, like Gustav, Preston, Slamdunc, Prager, ....

I, personally and I apologize to show friends, am convinced the show (majority) does not have what standard calls for proper temperament in a GSD.

I now laugh when I hear some show breeders describe their puppies when asked " they are very temperamented", you know what they mean? their puppies like to play !!!

Problem can be solved only when we recognize, see it, admit of it in public and sit down and work a strategy to overcome it.

I apologize if I was non-diplomatic, afterall I could be wrong

Ibrahim, you think all WL dogs lack endurance? How do you know that applies to all wl dogs? Moderqte , the gsd is a breed without extremes. Too much emphasis on "not enough angulation" when the gsd is not supposed to have the angulation you have come to believe is correct. I hope that there are many WL breeders who continue to produce dogs that do not do well in the show ring...because when the WL is placed high with the SL, well, that's just more of the same wrong conformation for a working breed.

Not all but the majority. No endurance can be achieved in a trotting GSD without proper angulation (which majority of work line GSDs lack), proper proportions, size and stamina.

 

I add

 

VAs have proper front angulation but over angulated in the rear. Over angulation is not proper angulation for endurance either. My opinion. Lack of either front or rear angulation = no endurance in GSD.

Hi, Ibrahim,

To Joanro's point, there is one (physical) reason this particular showline was able to "work" at the national/international level; and it's the same reason he could not place near the front of a Sieger show ring.  

Highly  angulated dogs cannot change directions as quickly, do not accelerate as well, tend to roll under hard, fast helper drives, and certainly as a general rule do not have more endurance.  There are of course exceptions.

Best to you,

Kevin