Stud dog question? Does he exist? - Page 2

I have a 6 year old WGSL. To me he's the total package. I've own him since he was 7 weeks old, trained him in a dozen different venues and have earned over 25 titles. Most of my friends who are into dogs but don't know the nuances of GSD type/lines assume he's a "working line" because he "works" and doesn't appear crippled.  I'm never sure whether those sorts of comments make me feel happy or sad! Healthwise he's OFA Good Hips, Normal Elbows, eyes were CERF'd in June 2013 (did not renew this past summer, will probably check every other year), thyroid had a full panel done by Dr. Dodds and is normal (he got a "Gold" certificate from her lab), DM clear/normal. His faults are he still stands a tad east/west in front (never outgrew that) and he does have a TV (transitional vertebra) but I had this examined by a world renowned specialist who told me this should not impact breeding other than not breeding to a female that has it. Conformation-wise he is V rated and a UKC Champion with one leg towards his Grand (not sure if I will finish that, conformation is a low priority for me and it's difficult to find shows near me that have enough competition entered to win GRCH legs).  I also have a KKL.  He is medium in size and bone.  24.5" tall and weighs 70-75lbs (less in the summer).  He is fairly moderately angled for a showline but opens at the shoulder so he moves pretty nice in my opinion.  I've had him evaluated twice for herding and the herding instructor was very impressed with not only his herding instinct but his movement with respect to herding.  Work/sport-wise he is SchH1 (was High SchH1, High Obedience, just 2 points shy of High in Trial  - I was beat by my own helper/trainer, this is my first SchH dog).  For SDA (another tracking, obedience, protection venue) he has his T1, FO, and PA.  He was also used to train and certify SDA decoys a few summers ago (poor dog was worked by nearly a dozen different people, some with very little experience/skill).  Right now I do a lot of flyball, he competes on average once a month and has competed in both league's national competitions (the Tournament of Champions and the CanAm Classic) and is a top 3 GSD in U-FLI.  He's also trained in agility and has one agility title, though I no longer train in this competitively (flyball is better for us right now because I have access to better/more training opportunities and can afford competing monthly with multiple dogs).  He has two lure coursing titles and three dock diving titles.  He has his birch ORT but failed his NW1, failed just the vehicle portion which I think only 5 of 46 people passed that day and I maybe rushed him to compete and was sick with shingles the day of the trial. He also has his CGC and did the ATTS Temperament Test (pass). He's a very clear-headed dog.  Very loyal and protective but is not overly sharp and has a high threshold.  I take him to my husband's elementary class for demos and he represents their school in summer parades.  I have him out in public or at work with me a lot and always take him on vacation.  He's not an outwardly social dog, very aloof, but a very calm, confident dog.  I can have people over and have him running loose.  He is my companion and housepet, not kenneled.  I have other dogs and have fostered dogs and he's been very helpful teaching my puppies and foster dogs the rules and enforcing them with fairness. The only dogs he really does not like are other intact males that are very close to him in age and size. The older this dog gets, the more I love everything about him.  I also own a 13 month old son of his (my future competition dog but not breeding material) and after these boys, I'm probably not getting another GSD for a loooong time, just haven't found anything lately that compares. I can't express how much I love this dog and am blessed to own and train him.  I have trained with half a dozen or so different SchH/IPO clubs and no one has ever given us crap because of my "black and red" dog.  He is no WUSV competitor but he is a well trained dog that loves to train and work and shows well. My other GSDs besides him and his WL/SL cross son have been working lines.

I'm sorry this is getting long winded.  I am not trying to post an ad but want to illustrate that these dogs DO exist, in fact I know many people with very nice dogs that are trained and respectably titled in many venue.  They seem fewer and far between because they are not owned by big name kennels, who tend to specialize in showline dogs, or SchH dogs, or supplying green dogs for law enforcement, etc.  If you want to find a really nice, well-rounded dog, you have to look more for individual people and the dogs that they personally have owned and trained as their passion, not just as a means to get a breed survey and sell puppies.

I would recommend checking out Boy von Zorra.  He is a WL but V rated in conformation (at a Sieger show) and I believe has done some show/work crosses as well as working line litters.  His progeny are competing in just about everything.  I trained one in SchH and flyball, he is now the fastest GSD in U-FLI (flyball) history and is competing in SchH at the national level.  I've met Boy and not only is he stunning and impressive, he seems to produce good drive and dogs that are balanced and can do well and have fun in a wide variety of venues, they are not over the top or overly sharp or anything that limits how they can be trained or managed. That is just my opinion/experience.

I do not advocate highly angulated GSD in the rear but correctly angulated, properly angulated GSD in front and rear can trot, gallop and run, take turns, etc. It will add to its work ability in general.

Then, Ibrahim, by your own criteria you do not advocate for the current version of a German show line.

Best to you always....

K

Thanks Kevin, I see faults in the show and I see faults in the work, problem seems to me each party denies faults of their dog type. I do not deny that in each type there are still very good ones, but don't think they are the majority. Joanro's view shows a good example of little to no care at all of proper conformation (not typical VA, but what standard describes a GSD), at least that is what I understood from her post.

Ibrahim,

Working line people often use the term "structure" to describe what they are breeding for or looking for in a puppy.  Those structural requirements describe the physical attributes necessary for an athletic working OR herding dog.

Most I know forego the term "conformation" as they now relate the word solely to showlines and what excels in the SV ring.  That show line conformation cannot perform the same athletic endeavours that a well stuctured working line is able - with very, very few exceptions.

But, they (the show lines) do gait exceedingly beautifully and I begrudge nobody their pursuit of that passion; only the nonsense rationalization that these kind of pursuits improve in any way athletic capability or endurance.

K

 

Ibrahim- I agree with everything you said. The majority of GSDs should have be able to work and be conformational correct. That should not be the exception.

 

I think working ability must be there over all else. It is the foundation to build on and without working ability the German shepherd is a mockery of itself. 

But, working ability does not necessarily mean top sport dog. 

This type of dog looks nice to me:

2 X LGA Jack von der Laue 
SCHH3 (V),
 Kkl 1 

 

 

Agree, a beautiful dog without exageration. That is a correctly angulated rear. Maybe needs a bit more angle and length to front upper arm, a bit more length to pasterns and less angle. More length to croup would be a plus too.

Ibrahim, you could not be further from the truth per my "care" for "proper" conformation. The structure is as important to me as the temperament in my dogs. With out PROPER conformation /STRUCTURE, a working dog cannot work. You are way off the mark in your comment about my views. I have owned/raised/traine d and titled to sch one, a Mittlewest male. I showed him only twice in conformation, both times the shows were InternatinalSeiger Shows...he was in the six month old class with probly 25 entries, my pup placed ninth. Then he was in as a twelve month old, another very large class, he placed tenth. So assume from those huge Seiger shows and his placement, he was of Correct conformation. So my point in telling you about him, is that compared to my WL dogs, of approximately the same age , that I raised, trained and titled, the SL dog could not match the WL dogs on his best day with speed, agility on the field or endurance. He was a very good dog as SL go in his performance in sch, but Ibrahim, it was sad watching him compared to the working dogs when he ran, turned, attempted to launch into a bite, etc. You , my friend, have much to learn about structure in the german shepherd as a breed....it is supposed to be of moderate structure, not angulated as the dog smily posted, that in my opinion resembles a hyena with a mastiff head.

Ibrahim, what basis for lacking endurance are you using when you say WL lack endurance? I have not found that to be the case...far from it, LOL. Even in casual backyard activities (let alone real work), the SL dogs I've had in my care are lost in the dust in more ways than one...stamina, speed, agility, tenacity, etc. Are you seeing this firsthand or just reading the SL point of view on the need for angulation and agreeing with the premise? 

VKGSDs, I agree with most everything you said, from your explanation of why you so respect Nikon down to where to look for dogs who are similar. I, too, suggested Boy and even my Boy/Capri son (Dallas vom Eisenherz) since the structure in that ped is so very strong for structure AND working ability (maybe too much). I think Boy is so under-utilized and I honestly think it's partly because he IS such a striking dog- it's like some of the "diehards" can't accept that he can look that good and work equally well. Also, Bill didn't campaign him. He gave him to Jen and he got a dog he focused on more. Let's face it- you have to have a well-known handler to make a name for a dog, and it's not reflective of the dog's quality many times. Jen did a great job with Boy, no doubt, but he wasn't really campaigned in an effort to stud out and unfortunately, that's what it takes sometimes to get a dog the recognition they deserve.   He's a great dog I've spent a number of hours with on several occasions and I've raised multiple pups from him. A few are a bit much for some, but I think that Capri was more to "blame" for that. Boy is a very balanced, non-extreme dog, though strong in character. If I had more lines to use him on, I certainly would. He's also a senior and every bit as healthy and gorgeous as he was when I first met him. Longevity, to me, is hugely important and under-emphasized. Give me a healthy 9yr old with no gray hair who can eat rocks and not get sick over a dog with a perfect shoulder any day. 

 

Smiley, you seem to be wanting the male to be perfect. Dogs are imperfect. No dog exists that is perfect in every criteria you mention. Additionally, your ideal is not everyone's ideal, so your criteria is not going to be the goal of many people, so I'm sure you are having a tough time finding the perfect male. The male cannot (and should not be expected to) carry the whole litter. You must have an equally strong, if not stronger, female. My personal preference is to breed on the dam line and choose the strongest dam line you can and choose males who are strong in the areas the females could be stronger in. I think the key to successful pairings is finding balance and complementary traits- not finding the best dog in the whole world.  

 

My point is, rather than try to find everything you want in one dog, and be disappointed over and over, I'm of the opinion that you should choose the most important traits you want to improve on your bitch and find the male strongest in those areas. The traits you want are found in different groups- the problem is most hate the others' traits, so you're not going to find too many people purposely trying to breed dogs with the traits you're asking for- ie, one trait from GSL, one from GWL, ASL and so on. 

Just my take on the matter. I've spent many hours pondering where best to find what I'm looking for in a GSD. 

Oops, I said what Joan said. I took too long posting and didn't see it. Working line and show line next to each other, engaged in identical activities...doesn't look good for the SL. 

Yet, even with my pessimistic view on their physical prowess, I did breed to a SL male and I'd do it again. I simply used my females strengths to complement his weaknesses (bit too loose in the rear) and vice versa. One need not find perfection- one ought to strive for complementary traits to the dog in question. JMO.